Local Republicans protest outside Rep. Larsen’s office
Spinnwolf was kind enough to send me a link to the video from today’s health care reform bill protest outside of U.S. Rep. Rick Larsen’s Bellingham office. The Everett Democrat recently announced his support for the House’s version of the bill, which includes a government-run public option.
Here’s the video:
Oh, yes, and in response to the person asking “Where is The Bellingham Herald when you need it (and the man who responded “forget that”),” the answer would be working on several stories about Bellingham’s property tax increase meeting on Monday, the county’s tax levy shift/fund transfer meeting and schedule vote on Tuesday and more for this weekend’s paper, on deadline. Covering local issues that local readers deserve to have information about, and all that jazz.
Thanks again to Spinnwolf.
November 6th, 2009 at 5:00 pm
I am, however, working to clone myself.
November 6th, 2009 at 5:15 pm
Hey, ST, anytime you like I’s will write that article for ya, if you can’t make it! I didn’t make it meself today, but in the future, that offer is there!
After my unbias reporting the Bherald may never be the same agin!
AFY!!thesheepdog!!!
November 6th, 2009 at 5:26 pm
Hmm…seems that some of those signs should read “No Government Health Care, Except My Medicare…”
Sam, careful with the cloning…I’ve heard it hurts…
November 6th, 2009 at 5:34 pm
Government health care rescues protesters at anti-government health care rally.
November 6th, 2009 at 5:36 pm
Steve - don’t you think that an EMT helping someone at a rally is a little bit different than a government-run health insurance policy? Actually … isn’t it very different?
November 6th, 2009 at 6:02 pm
Sam,
Sure it’s different, those EMT’s really are Government run health care… and they’re (gasp) unionized!
November 6th, 2009 at 6:04 pm
But is it fair to equate boots-on-the-ground EMT work to insurance policy management, which is much more similar (or, rather, is exactly the same as) Medicare and Medicare insurance work?
November 6th, 2009 at 6:11 pm
Sam,
The teabaggers/Republicans compare the healthcare reform bill to the Holocaust and you’re asking ME if I’m making a fair comparison?
November 6th, 2009 at 6:23 pm
For those who have a hard time understanding, for most Americans, somewhere like over 70%, they like their current health care. What these people are against is the change that will be forced upon them once government gets even more control over their health care.
“But America’s health care is not doing badly. Indeed a National Center for Policy Analysis study from last March shows how much better we are doing than countries like Canada, Britain, and other European nations that have government health care control:
Breast-cancer mortality is 52% higher in Germany and 88% higher in Britain than in the U.S.
Prostate-cancer mortality is 457% higher in Norway and 604% higher in Britain than in the U.S.
Eighty-nine percent of middle-aged women in the U.S. have had a mammogram, compared with 72% in Canada.
Fifty-four percent of men in the U.S. have had a prostate-specific antigen test, compared with 16% of Canadian men.
As for the availability of health care, another study shows that 74% of those in the U.S. meet for scheduled doctors appointments within four weeks, while only 42% of British and 40% of Canadians do. Only 10% of Americans wait longer than two months, while 33% of Brits and 42% of Canadians wait that long.”
http://www.ncpa.org/commentaries/bad-medicine
This ain’t about improving health care!! It is about bigger government control over our life!
AFY!!thesheepdog!!!
November 6th, 2009 at 6:23 pm
I think the EMT response shows that we already have sufficient government-run health care to handle emergencies; anything more than that is tyranny.
November 6th, 2009 at 6:25 pm
I don’t remember any of my blog commenters comparing it to the Holocaust, Steve, and I’m engaging you, a local, in a discussion here locally, on this blog. Just as I engage other commenters here on other issues and statements they make.
November 6th, 2009 at 6:26 pm
Why would it be tyranny, spinnwolf? Doesn’t that seem a little over-the-top to say?
November 6th, 2009 at 6:44 pm
When all health care is controlled by government agencies–it can not only be denied, it can also be imposed. This is the ultimate threat to the individual’s basic freedom.
The seeds of total control are in this current legislation. Barmie Frank said that this “health care reform” plan is the doorway to “single payer”. That will be tyranny.
Your body. Your health. Your personal decisions. These should be none of the government’s da*m business.
Your income should be none of the government’s business either–and we will take care of that when we repeal the 16th amendment.
November 6th, 2009 at 6:47 pm
“If I knew for a certainty that a man was coming to my house with the conscious design of doing me good, I should run for my life.” Henry David Thoreau
Why would he run, because he loves his freedom, tyranny is as much as anything, the taking from free people their choices, always in the name of what is best for everyone but never in the truth of what is best for the individual!!
AFY!!thesheepdog!!!
November 6th, 2009 at 7:08 pm
I don’t mean to imply that most, or even many, Tea Party members or opponents of the healthcare bill equate this legislation with Nazism, but I have seen several ugly references which suggest that some do.
For example, near the end of the Bellingham clip, you can see a woman carrying a green sign, which reads:
OBAMA DOING SAME AS HITLER
TAKE OVER HEALTHCARE
COMMUNISM NEXT
And, the Huffington Post had a piece showing some of the signs at the healthcare rally in Washington. One huge sign read:
National Socialist Health Care
Dachau, Germany - 1945
This slogan headlined a picture showing of a pile of concentration camp corpses.
You can see that sign and others right here:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/05/the-12-most-offensive-sig_n_347398.html?slidenumber=YQKSlGc5xDU%3D
Finally, Bill Moyers discussed similar ugly sentinements in a piece he did on the large anti-tax rally the Tea Party held in D.C. several weeks ago:
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/09182009/watch3.html
Finally, Mother Jones had this to say about the disturbing rhetoric heard at the recent rally:
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2009/11/tea-partys-takeover-gop
Personally, I find all of this extremely disconcerting.
November 6th, 2009 at 7:10 pm
If you tried to cover every whine festival put forth by these logic-impaired citizens,
there would be no room for anything else.
November 6th, 2009 at 7:14 pm
LOL … ‘I don’t mean to imply … ‘ then, off you go with the SOS … it’s nice of you to cite the most liberal sites … OK, my friend, ‘disconcerted’ it is! Hope your life improves soon.
November 6th, 2009 at 7:23 pm
Todd 2, All of these “ugly” references you point to are meant to show the direction in which our current elected representatives are heading–these are the inevitable destinations if we continue to follow our current leaders. And yes, the destination is ugly. That is why we must change course.
“Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.”
And right now, the power-seekers are in control and consolidating their power.
November 6th, 2009 at 8:07 pm
Many of our elected representatives within the Democratic Party are no longer following in the time-honored footsteps laid down by the founding fathers of our great Nation. More importantly, we as democrats see our elected representatives within the Democratic Party abandoning the values and principles as set forth within the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States.
Nonetheless, this is only the beginning of our problems as Democrats, for the current Democratic Party leadership is tainted by corruption and being taken over by Socialists. These Socialists are clearly a threat to everything we hold sacred in America, and they are gaining evermore control over our Democratic Party, our Nation, and the American people.
Despite this, we as Democrats can restore control of the Democratic Party back to the party members. All we need to do is cut off donations to the local, state, and national headquarters of the Democratic Party, and to make sure the donations are made directly to patriotic and honorable Democratic Party candidates that are not corrupt and/or Socialist.
So please help spread the message to everyone of our fellow Democrats. Also, don’t forget to contact and request the Unions and other outside contributors to follow our lead as patriotic Americans.
Thank you, and God Bless America.
Web site: http://www.democraticreformparty.com
Blog site: http://blog.democraticreformparty.com
November 6th, 2009 at 8:09 pm
Sam, It’s a little surprising to see you judge Steve’s/Think Progress’s ironic truth that a government healthcare worker rescues an anti-government healthcare protestor so quickly.
I can see the average protestor brushing aside the notion,and not seeing the irony,but for the rest of us,it’s comedic gold. The rescuer literally being a government healthcare worker is rich.
The protestors invented the notion of “Government Run Healthcare!!!”
The people to chastise and attempt to educate regarding the ridiculous often repeated “slogan” obviously,
are the tea party protestors.
I’m glad the protestor lived,but can’t help but hope his insurance denies coverage.
November 6th, 2009 at 8:11 pm
I didn’t judge anything, Worst, I asked a question.
Glad to see that both the liberals and conservatives on this blog get prickly-defensive when I ask follow-up, conversation-forwarding questions.
November 6th, 2009 at 8:32 pm
In General… not directed at any one person…
First of all, I’d like to say that not all those opposed to Govt HealthCare or at these Rallies are “Republicans”. Many have disconnected themself from that Party - both Parties are corrupt (if you don’t believe me you are either uninformed or in denial, sorry it’s the truth).
Conservative? Yes, probably - but there are also those who claim to be a Dem who remain “fiscally conservative/responsible” - Blue Dog ring a bell?
Notes:
1. Free Health Care For All is NOT “Free”. The price tag attached to this is going to bankrupt even more businesses in this unstable economy. Employers will not be able to afford the fees and/or penalties designed to cover all their workers and they will fail.
2. Can you say Socialism? Yes, I said it “So-cial-ism” - that’s what it is there is no way to hide or deny it. Many liberals I have talked to have no problem supporting that fact.
3. Big Government is not the answer. Our US Constitution was written to limit the powers of the government - not to limit us… yet what is happening? Ever read the 10th Amendment? We can “reform” within our own State without having to look to the Federal government for answers. You want to support something? Support HJM 4009 instead of this nightmare. Then maybe we can really get something done.
4. I won’t even get into the potential quality or limitation of care… look at Canada for crying out loud. We live on the Border… don’t you have any friends up there? I could tell you some horror stories.
I have not heard one person say that they are opposed to “Reform”. This, however, is a power grab. This needs to be thought through and not rushed. Where is the fire? And does it not strike you odd that this Administration ran on a campaign of Transparency - but there has been NONE? I would like a chance to read this 2,000 page Bill and I would like my Representative to have that same opportunity before blindly voting on it. Isn’t that, at least, something that liberals and conservatives both can agree on?
… and there are my thoughts for the night
“In free governments the rulers are the servants and the people their superiors and sovereigns.” - Ben Franklin
November 6th, 2009 at 8:40 pm
Oh - and thank you to those who stood in the Washington weather with their flags and signs
Remember to Go Green and Recycle Congress in 2010!
November 6th, 2009 at 9:36 pm
Sam,
Point well taken…long day.
In general,not directed at any one person.
First of all,If you haven’t heard one person that has been opposed to “Reform”, (you are either uninformed,or in denial,sorry it’s the truth.)
As for transparency,the proposal is online. The people that need to read the whole bill,have. The potential issue of the full bill not being posted within the promised 72 hours is one of potential last minute changes.
Which,to accommodate the obstructionists there have been too many.
http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h3200/text%20
http://www.whitehouse.gov/assets/documents/White_House_Forum_on_Health_Reform_Report.pdf
“Any fool can criticize,condemn and complain and most fools do.” -Ben Franklin
November 6th, 2009 at 9:42 pm
As worst ever says, we need to educate those LIKE worst ever who are clueless about the take over that is going on in this country. Clueless about government getting involved and taking over corporations. Taking over healthcare. Everything they touch is in trouble from Fanny Mae, Freddie Mac, US Mail, Am Trac, Medicare in a few years, Social Security. Wake up! Most of the tea party people have things they would rather be doing but we have to babysit our government because they are out of control. Those of you who don’t get it are going to drag the rest of us down with you. Please, educate YOURSELF!
November 6th, 2009 at 9:59 pm
The worst kind of ignorance is the willful kind.
November 6th, 2009 at 9:59 pm
So, one never speaks out because you will silence them with your quote about being a fool? A fool can also remain silent while they are led to slaughter by those who try to belittle them for speaking out.
I am sure that would have been an excellent quote for anyone who tried to say the world is not flat back when they thought it was…who was the fool? Any intelligent person WILL criticize, condemn or complain IF THERE IS INJUSTICE GOING ON.
Those who do not want to be opposed will try and silence their opposition in whatever way they can find that protects their agenda. So Worst-Ever, say what you want, WE WILL NOT BE SILENCED! Only a fool would remain silent in the face of injustice!
November 6th, 2009 at 10:29 pm
Laura:
Here’s an opportunity to put rhetoric aside and discuss,if you’re so inclined.
Let’s start with what I call facts and see where we disagree.
Medicare and the VA are considered by most,to be providing excellent “government run healthcare”.
Funding problems? Absolutely. Best care in the world? Close.
Let’s leave the excellent service we get from the likes of the US Mail,Social Security (again funding issues) out of it and talk healthcare.
Many people are dying due to lack of healthcare insurance.
The system is obviously broken and needs fixing.
The rightwing had there chance as the problem has needed to be addressed for a long time,and they were at the helm for many recent years and failed the american people by not instituting any reform.
We’re do we disagree so far?
(My Ben Franklin quote was a counter to a previous Ben franklin quote,and meant to illustrate that anyone can spin quotes)
November 6th, 2009 at 10:39 pm
20,000 gay and lesbian rights proponents assemble at capitol. They are there to tell congress and the president they are tired of waiting for their promises. They are just getting their just rights. They are a poor and dienfranchised group.
40,000 pro hb3200 people rally at capitol building. They are showing there support to congress. They are just a poor a nd dienfranchised group trying to get what wealthy americans have.
1.2 million protest on 9-12. they are fringe element.
40,000 protest yesterday at capitol building against healthcare reform bill. They are fringe element, teabagger etc.
Approx 60 rally at Larsen’s office. Fringe, teabaggers, logic impaired citizens. At least we were still considered citizens.
Why the double standard. Is that all the progressive movement has. We have 2 new county council members. Keep up the good work, Mr Lydolph. You are a great asset to us.
And Steve, I’m thinking there is a great difference between emergency medical treatment on the local level and state run healthcare. Most significantly we can, with little effort and when we choose, replace the current EMT system with a private company. Actually a private company could compete with the local emt’s, something that will not be possible if the state run health care system was allowed to manifest.
November 6th, 2009 at 10:44 pm
They’re taking over our healthcare!
They’re nationalizing the banks and the auto companies!
They are taking over the corporations!
They are socializing the entire nation!
They are ramming this healthcare bill down our throats, and they are leading us down the proverbial path to tyrannical communism!
Where do these ideas come from?
Sean Hannity & Michele Bachmann: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TAskp6q6h8
“The mechanism by which ideas are disseminated on a large scale is propaganda, in the broad sense of an organized effort to spread a particular belief or doctrine. . . . This practice of creating circumstances and of creating pictures in the minds of millions of persons is very common. . . . The important thing is that it is universal and continuous; and in its sum total it is regimenting the public mind every bit as much as an army regiments the bodies of its soldiers.
“So vast are the numbers of minds which can be regimented, and so tenacious are they when regimented, that a group at times offers an irresistible pressure before which legislators, editors, and teachers are helpless. The group will cling to its stereotypes, making of those supposedly powerful beings mere bits of driftwood in the surf.” –Edward Bernays, 1928, pp. 48-53.
And, the best propaganda often uses emotional appeals while pandering to peoples’ unconscious fears.
November 6th, 2009 at 11:05 pm
Incidentally, don’t bother to fact check the Hannity and Bachmann diatribe, because when it comes to propaganda, the truth is irrelevant.
November 6th, 2009 at 11:15 pm
absolutely fascinating thread - all because we have a representative who thinks he knows best, and a poster who is convinced his representative has seen the bill - seeing 2000 pages or even reading 2000 pages bears no promise of comprehension of its content.
November 7th, 2009 at 12:58 am
Todd 2 asks where these ideas come from. These ideas come from the Declaration of Independence, and the U.S. Constitution. Read them. Then read the newspaper. Then read the 2,000 page “health care bill”. Then read the Constitution again. You will see where these ideas come from.
Perhaps you will notice the disconnect between what is happening and the concept of limited government.
November 7th, 2009 at 1:03 am
And, Todd 2, you might just consider the idea that it may be you who has fallen prey to the kind of propaganda machine described in your quote from Edward Bernays. That sounds to me like a strong possibility.
November 7th, 2009 at 1:45 am
Is there an audiobook version of them I can put on my iPod? Reading is hard.
November 7th, 2009 at 1:47 am
What’s a newspaper? Is it like a blog?
November 7th, 2009 at 2:08 am
My biggest gripe is TOO MUCH GOVERNMENT! We no longer have a Republic but an Oligarchy, which is the major problem. They have strayed too far from our Consitution, in fact they mock it!
They admit there will still be many who will not be covered with this heath bill. Why do they need a 2000 page bill? That is insane! They can correct some of the health care problems without making it government run, why do they not pursue that avenue? Because it is about money and power; control over us.
One of their own members said they could not understand the bills so why read them? Why do they need to be so complex?
I believe one of the best aids in healthcare is preventive. We create many of our diseases by what we put into our bodies and what we do or don’t do to them. Many are irresponsible and expect everyone else to take care of them when they experience the repercussions of their bad decisions.
We would all love a perfect world where there is no disease, hunger, crime, etc…but until man changes his ways, that is not going to happen. So, as a concerned citizen, who has been responsible, I want our “career politicians” to change THEIR ways. They are not to be in charge of our healthcare!
November 7th, 2009 at 10:10 am
So, you’re against big government, socialized healthcare, and high taxes? Well, the answer is so simple, it’s a no brainer!
All we need to do is eliminate all forms of socialized healthcare in the country, which would dramatically cut taxes and reduce the size of government. First of all, we should put an end to Medicare/Medicaid.
After all, why should I be expected to pay for someone else’s healthcare? There is no reason why individuals and families shouldn’t be responsible for themselves, when it comes to dealing with the ravages of old age. Of course, a lot of people won’t live as long as they do now, but most of them are just an unproductive drain on the system anyway.
Ending Medicare/Medicaid would drastically reduce demand for medical services and pharmaceuticals, so the cost of healthcare would take an immediate nose dive, making healthcare more affordable over night. There problem solved! Wow! That was easy!
Hell, while we are at it, maybe we should go whole hog and eliminate socialized old-age pensions, like George W. Bush suggested. All we have to do is privatize Social Security! Wow!
We can cut federal spending by at least 44%, by eliminating just TWO programs! Whoot!
This is obviously working, so why stop there?! Let’s eliminate healthcare for our veterans and socialized emergency services! Of course, the next time a family member needs an ambulance, it’ll cost you an arm and a leg, but before long, the only federal spending worth complaining about will be all the money we spend on the military.
Whew! Now we can finally stop complaining about too much government taking control over our lives, while we merrily pay down the federal debt!
November 7th, 2009 at 11:20 am
Alright, now you are just being silly.
November 7th, 2009 at 1:28 pm
Todd 2, you people always begin with the false assumption that if there is a problem anywhere for anybody it can only be solved with a government program—and that can only be the FEDERAL government. Problems that could be solved more easily and generously by real people without any federal involvement get magnified and codified and turned into massive spending programs. Every dollar we send to Washington gets drained of most of its value on the round trip back to us. As Ronaldus Magnus said, “It’s like giving yourself a blood transfusion from one arm to the other with a leaky hose.”
The real problem for you people is that eliminating federal programs eliminates federal UNION jobs. That’s bad for the union but not for the worker—because if that money were not being spent by the federal bureaucracies, then the states and the counties, cities, and private organizations would have more to spend on jobs providing actual health care instead of shuffling paper.
November 7th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
Replying to spinnwolf:
“You people always begin with the false assumption that if there is a problem anywhere for anybody it can only be solved with a government program—and that can only be the FEDERAL government.”
-Don’t be ridiculous. I don’t believe anything of the sort.
“Problems that could be solved more easily and generously by real people without any federal involvement get magnified and codified and turned into massive spending programs.”
-My 83 year old stepmother lives in my home, without cost to her, and I do everything I can to take good care of her. But, for nearly a decade, she has suffered from multiple, chronic, overlapping health conditions which have continued to escalate. During the past decade, I have helped her through 5 surgeries. And, last week, I just got her home from yet another hospital visit and a two week nursing home stay. There is absolutely no way in hell the two of us could have afforded the cost of her healthcare all these years, and if it weren’t for Medicare/Medicaid, I would have had to bury her a long time ago.
Maybe you are one of the “real people” who could have “more easily and generously” solved our healthcare problems without a “massive spending program.” Maybe I should have held a friggin’ bake sale to pay for her third vertibroplasty from advanced osteoporosis or the surgery for her uterous cancer 10 years ago. If you’d like to donate, I’ll open a charity account at the credit union.
“Every dollar we send to Washington gets drained of most of its value on the round trip back to us.”
-This is pattently false. The administrative overhead for social security, for example, is in the single digits.
“The real problem for you people is that eliminating federal programs eliminates federal UNION jobs.”
-Where did this come from? I didn’t say anything about unions. BTW, what do you have against unions?
“That’s bad for the union but not for the worker—because if that money were not being spent by the federal bureaucracies, then the states and the counties, cities, and private organizations would have more to spend on jobs providing actual health care instead of shuffling paper.”
-This sounds like another version of tricke-down Reaganomics. It didn’t hold water then, and the reasoning is just as flawed today.
I wish you conservatives could come up with some sound reasoning and solid evidence for your beliefs at least once in a while. Sheesh!
November 7th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
Todd 2, You were robbed of your wealth by paying federal income taxes, FICA taxes, and all the other taxes, fees, and surtaxes that you never see. Think what you could have done for your mother had you not been bled dry by government at all levels. And every one of those taxes is multiplied on everything you buy.
Have you any idea how much tax is included in every purchase for transportation of the goods? Government mandates on the employers of the people who made the goods? And that’s only the beginning.
You are paying two or three times for every medical service your mother has received thanks to government regulation, liability insurance, and taxes, taxes, taxes.
Conservatives have sound reasoning and solid evidence on our side. It is liberal fantasyland that has no evidence to support their claims. Reaganomics works everytime it is tried. Reagan was the one President who actually had a university degree in economics, understood how the economy actually functions, and respected the Constitution. “Trickle down” is a term coined by the Left in a lame effort to ridicule and marginalize the extraordinary success of Reagan economic policy. Reagan’s description was ” a rising tide lifts all boats.”
And it truly did—except for those in liberal dominated areas where professional politicians managed to scuttle the boats of the disadvantaged to keep them dependent upon government largess and the politicians who dispense it.
Professional progressive politicians have a vested interest in maintaining a permanent underclass, assuring the vote of people who feel that their very life depends upon some politician.
This health care plan is an effort to scuttle everybody’s boat and make certain that nobody will ever dare to do anything for themselves ever again.
What will you do for your mother when Medicare is cut and, as President Obama said, “maybe a pill would be better than expensive surgery.”
You will have no options. They all will have been taken away by your government. Welcome to the wonderful world of a permanent single underclass that ensnares the entire population in a state of perpetual dependence on Big Nanny.
November 7th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
A local discussion that centers around federal legislation…
I read the bill. I also read the bill analysis, the Congressional Budget Office Analysis and the analysis written by MIT Professor and CBO health advisor Dr. Jonathan Gruber.
What I don’t read or watch is propaganda generated by media prima donna’s who need ratings to make a living.
I want to make informed decisions about policy issues based on solid research and facts, not lies and supposition.
Facts: (The “cost of inaction” for American families and our nation)
Our broken health care system will cost America $248 billion in lost productivity this year alone.
Providing health care for the uninsured costs insured American families $100 billion every year (is someone doing the math)?
In the last decade, the cost of health care for American families has skyrocketed - premiums have doubled and deductibles and out of pocket expenses have gone up and up.
Result: the average cost of an employer sponsored family health insurance plan reaches $24,000 by 2016. An increase of 84%. That means that most average American families will be spending 45% of their disposable income on health insurance.
Are the Republicans paying attention yet?
Facts: the effects of “inaction” on American Businesses:
Employer spending on health care premiums more than doubles to $885 billion in 2019 from $430 billion (in ten years).
As premiums increase 20%, expected in the next four years, 3.5 million American workers lose their jobs.
Because of skyrocketing health care costs, one in five employers stops offering health benefits in the next three to five years. It is estimated that an addtional 11 million Americans will lose their employer sponsored health insurance by 2019 (within 10 years).
And, for those who keep trying to shove the Constitution down my throat (wish to god you actually understood it).
Facts: the “cost of inaction” causes the Federal Government to go broke.
Combined with the rising costs of care, spending on Medicare and Medicaid doubles from $720 billion in 2009 to $1.4 Trillion in 2019 (is anyone doing the math)?
Today, we spend one out of every $5 we earn on health care. In 30 years, we will spend one out of every $3 on health care.
Finally, the bill proposes to end the antitrust exemption for Health Insurers (this should warm the cockles of the free market ideologists) by eliminating the anti trust exemption for health insurers and medical malpractice insurers. The bill increases competition in the insurance marketplace. It will remove the shield that has allowed them to price fix, divide up territory, and effectively create monopolies in particular markets.
Reduced costs, efficient delivery of services, increased competition among providers, affordability and the end of antitrust exemption. What more could a Republican want? Oh, they would prefer that private health insurance employes make health care decisions for citizens rather than doctors.
You gotta love the irony in all of this. The average American will be spending one out of $3 dollars on health care in 30 years. And, the Republicans want to????
November 7th, 2009 at 3:32 pm
Although the question has been raised many times, I’ve yet to read a response from any of the commenters on this blog who receive Medicare and Social Security benefits, justify their opposition to a federally run national health care program based on their argument that it’s a socialist program, and yet at the same time willingly participate in it.
I would sincerely like to read a defense of this hypocrisy.
Why is ok for them but not for their fellow citizens?
November 7th, 2009 at 3:54 pm
Good question!
I think it’s the American way — I got mine — and you are not going to get yours!
(Even if it saves Americans money and increases national productivity)!
November 7th, 2009 at 4:01 pm
People on social security and medicare are not there by choice. It was forced upon them at gunpoint. We had no choice to opt out when our money was being deducted from our paychecks decade after decade, for both social security and medicare. That money was virtually taken from us at gunpoint. And now, medicare payments are still being deducted from our social security checks.
That money would have been available for a real retirement plan had politicians not decided that they knew better.
And don’t assume that all people over the age of 65 are in need of huge amounts of “health care” dollars. Most people who don’t care for their own health, don’t make it to 65. Many who are 65+ are not medically active. Some have no need whatsoever for medical insurance.
Getting the government to stop strangling peoples’ lives, freedom and resources would do more for improving the condition of everybody’s health and wellbeing, than anything else we could do.
November 7th, 2009 at 4:27 pm
OK Todd, when we say there is too much government you go to the extreme, not acknowledging the problems in government. You do not throw out the baby with the bath water. Life is about balance, so should government be.
Lets start with our Congress; term limits, they were not meant to make a career out it. Why should they give themselves a raise? How many other employees tell their bosses they are giving themselves a raise? Why should they be exempt from what other citizens pay and have their own special programs, medical and retirement included?
It is evident that there are vast amounts of money being spent on frivolous causes. We are no longer in control of our money and they do not care. Congress is responsible for selling us out, along with a few presidents. It is criminal what the politicians have done to this country. I am watching the John Adams movie and I am in tears to see what we have allowed to happen to what they fought so dearly to give us.
Shame on you and to the rest of you who are turning a blind eye to the corruption and destruction if this country; YOU are part of the problem! There is no point in conversing any further with someone who does not have the capacity to grasp what is going on around them.
November 7th, 2009 at 5:27 pm
I have not turned a blind eye to the corruption in our government, which should be obvious to anyone who read my post to this thread from the other day:
http://blogs.bellinghamherald.com/politics/national/whatcom-republicans-larsen-supports-worst-bill-ever-on-health-care-party-to-hold-protest-friday/#comments
Basically, I believe we are living in a plutocracy that is controlled by a corporate oligarchy that is exercising pretty firm control over our federal government. And, one of the ways the ruling class maintains political control is by using the mass media to manipulate public opinion so as to effectively divide the nation into disparate ideological camps. Another way is by encouraging political ignorance among the populace.
Thus, today, it is very nearly impossible for many republicans and democrats to hold a reasonable and reasoned political discussion, without the conversation soon devolving into an emotional shouting match in which the participants simply argue past one another without hearing what each has to say.
Given the current state of affairs, though, my money is still with the Democrats.
November 7th, 2009 at 5:42 pm
The mass media–including the internet–has grown so vast that it is impossible for the government to manipulate it under present laws. That is why they need the “fairness doctrine” which isn’t fair, and as many controls over the internet and radio as they can get; and federal funds for failing newspapers which will put them under federal control.
The media is not controlled yet, but it is coming if Obama has his way. Then there will be no voices of protest allowed; no one to say that the government is too big and that corporations are in bed with big government. The free flow of information will have been stopped, and ignorance will prevail.
November 7th, 2009 at 6:19 pm
Oh, I see the problem, spinnwolf. You think the government is the enemy and would like to control the media.
No, no. The government doesn’t control the media. Instead, the corporate elite unduly influence both the government AND the mass media. I think the evidence for this is pretty clear.
For example, for many years now, about 70% of U.S. adults say they get most of their news from television. All you have to do is research the corporate affiliations of presidential appointments to the Federal Communications Commission back to the Reagan years, and you’ll get a pretty clear picture of a situation in which the foxes are almost always guarding the hen house. More often than not, the director of the FCC is a president or officer of one of the major networks. Of course, this is very similar to the situation with Treasury appointments, and indeed, most executive appointments.
That we are living in a plutocracy governed by a ruling elite is pretty well documented. To learn more, I would suggest any number of excellent books by political scientist Thomas R. Dye (Florida State Univ.), including:
http://www.amazon.com/Irony-Democracy-Uncommon-Introduction-Advantage/dp/0495501239/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_4
http://www.amazon.com/Whos-Running-America-Bush-Restoration/dp/0130974625/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpi_9
http://www.amazon.com/Whos-Running-America-Clinton-Years/dp/013123241X/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpi_11
For additional insight, you might also see the following:
http://www.amazon.com/Rules-America-Politics-Social-Change/dp/0072876255/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b
http://www.amazon.com/Superclass-Global-Power-Elite-Making/dp/0374531617/ref=dp_cp_ob_b_title_3
http://www.amazon.com/Power-Elite-C-Wright-Mills/dp/0195133544/ref=dp_cp_ob_b_title_1
Happy reading!
November 7th, 2009 at 6:23 pm
Spinwolf,
This nation is built upon the free flow of information and it is impossible to quiet the voices, especially with the strength of the world wide internet. Let’s leave paranoia at the door please.
Laura,
We are not a democracy. We are a republic. Granted, there will always be problems with government programs. No program is ever perfect, but that does not mean that we should not implement social programs. (Nor are they unconstitutional, evil or a form of corruption).
I agree, it is disappointing to try to discuss issues with people who do not understand what is happening around them.
November 7th, 2009 at 7:02 pm
Federal social programs are unconstitutional. Nothing in the Constitution authorizes the federal government to take money from one citizen and give it to another, no matter how benevolent the intention. It leads absolutely to corruption.
These activities should be the province of individuals and the sovereign states. I hope that within the next few years we shall make headway in urging the 50 states to individually assert their sovereignty as established by the 10th amendment and push back Federal interference.
November 7th, 2009 at 7:20 pm
This afternoon, I happened upon this extremely pertinent and informative documentary that seems to touch upon much in the present discussion, as well as having a bearing upon our current economic situation.
I hope you find it interesting: http://video.pbs.org/video/1309577149
November 7th, 2009 at 9:00 pm
Spinnwolf,
That is spoken like a true Jeffersonian Republican, but how can individual states stand up to the might of major multinational corporations, especially when so many of the citizens in our representative democracy are politically illiterate, poorly educated, and largely unaware of contemporary events?
November 7th, 2009 at 10:46 pm
It is precisely the politically illiterate who are perennially bamboozled by Progressive career politicians, kept poorly educated by Progressive-controlled schools, and made unaware by Progressives refusal to control the drug trade.
New Orleans is a prime example of a Progressive paradise, mired in ignorance, poverty and political illiteracy, to the point of being totally helpless in the face of a hurricane while school buses sit unused. (Yes, lets all get rid of our cars, and we too can be stuck with no means of escape in the face of a disaster.)
Major multinational corporations are not a problem if they are not in league with a federal government which feeds on them as they arrange for laws to allow them to feed on the public.
In a truly free market with open competition, corporations and all businesses would be controlled by the consumer. People don’t like to spend their money with “bad” corporations. The dishonest would go bankrupt if the government stayed out of it; and would be replaced with something more in line with what consumers want.
Since the States have managed to regulate the majority of medical insurance companies into not doing business within their borders, I don’t see them having a lot of trouble doing the same with any other corporation. But that is a problem for the people of each individual state. Right now it is the Federal Government that is the most dangerous to our freedom, is growing like a cancer, and must be contained.
I see now that the “Health Care” bill has passed in the House. Our representatives in Washington are now totally out of control, and racing toward the brink.
November 8th, 2009 at 12:24 am
The House of Representatives passed an historic milestone for the American people tonight, which promises to curb the rising cost of healthcare in America.
The Washington Post finally published the best synopsis of this legislation I have read to date, which reads: “Starting next year, private insurers could no longer deny anyone coverage based on preexisting conditions, place lifetime limits on coverage or abandon people when they become ill. Insurers would be required to disclose and justify proposed premium increases to regulators, and could not remove adult children younger than 27 from their parents’ family policies.
“For the elderly, the group that has been most skeptical of Obama’s initiative, the House package would immediately offer discounts on prescription drugs and reduce a gap in Medicare prescription drug coverage, closing it entirely by 2019.”
Plus, the bill promises to rather dramatically reduce the size of federal deficits in the decades ahead (by reducing projected increases in entitlement spending). And, it does all this for only about $105 billion a year over the first ten years. In my opinion, that’s a bargain.
Furthermore, according to the MIT analysis provided on this blog by Elisabeth, this bill will also dramatically reduce the cost of our health insurance premiums (in my case, by nearly half).
When you also consider passage of the Credit Card Accountability, Responsibility and Disclosure Act of 2009 earlier this year, which provides consumer protection against the worse abuses of credit card companies, I am greatly encouraged.
If Congress keeps this up, we may actually see its approval ratings rise in the polls. Who knows? Congress might actually begin to restore citizens’ faith in its ability to work on behalf of the people — for a change.
And, that’s change I welcome.
While this bill is far from perfect, it is indeed a huge step toward fixing our broken healthcare system. Let’s hope it makes it through the Senate without major dilutions.
November 8th, 2009 at 1:12 am
OK. You go ahead and believe that. You’re like sheep being led to the slaughter. What you have just said defies logic. I don’t know why you can’t see that.
November 8th, 2009 at 1:22 am
Spinnwolf,
You are correct in that classical economic theory, Austrian economics, and even Randian Objectivism all suggest that oligopolies and monopolies will wither in the face of open competition in truly free markets, and that we would all be a lot better off economically if that were the case. At least that’s the theory on paper.
However, in practice, a truly free market has never really existed in this country, although I will grant that, earlier in our nation’s history, we were indeed closer to the ideal. At any rate, I think history has pretty well demonstrated that, since the Industrial Revolution of late 1800s, large trusts and corporations began to influence legislation so as to provide them unfair competitive advantages in the marketplace. In other words, more often than not, governments have served to squelch competition for our largest corporations, so that today, we find a few oligopolies in most major sectors of the economy, including chemicals, automobiles, finance, pharmaceuticals, and so forth.
Of course, government could change this situation by eliminating barriers to free competition and opening up the marketplace, but that is unlikely to happen so long as a more informed and reasonably well educated citizenry does not exercise more control over their government.
Notice that I did not say “deregulation,” which was clearly a form of newspeak. Indeed, under deregulation during the Reagan-Bush era, major corporations were simply given free rein to run rough-shod over the American consumer. Hence, in the financial sector for example, we got usurious credit card rates approaching 30%, predatory lending practices, mortgages with interest rates that suddenly jump to 18%, outlandish banking fees, payday loan outfits in nearly every neighborhood in our inner cities, exorbitant ATM fees, etc., et. al. And, from investors’ points of view, we saw all kinds of fancy derivatives, unregulated over the counter derivatives markets, commoditized mortgage backed securities, a host of off-shore tax havens, international currency and commodity speculation gone wild, and more. Well, you get the picture.
At any rate, as for our politics, we may not be as far apart as we might imagine.
The real problem I have is with Americans who have either abrogated their responsibility for holding their government accountable or who attempt to do so by uncritically adopting the emotionally charged slogans provided them by spin masters in the mass media. Ultimately, each and every one of us is responsible for our own educations, and that includes acquiring at least a rudimentary understanding of our nation’s history.
November 8th, 2009 at 2:17 am
“Of course, government could change this situation by eliminating barriers to free competition and opening up the marketplace, but that is unlikely to happen so long as a more informed and reasonably well educated citizenry does not exercise more control over their government. ”
An informed and extremely well educated citizenry, well-versed in history, has at last begun to pay attention to what is going on at the Federal level and has indeed begun the process of exercising more control over their government. They are Conservatives and Libertarians. They also have become known as “the Tea Party.”
November 8th, 2009 at 9:19 am
Informed with lies and aware of nothing except what they’re fed,
they are tools for wealthy special interests that manipulate them shamelessly,
exaggerate their numbers and exude overt racism and hatred for Democracy.
If Obama was a white guy with a Texas accent,
the whole tea party would cease to exist.
November 8th, 2009 at 11:14 am
And the House rises to President Obama’s call and passes the Affordable Health Care Act with a vote of 220 to 215!
The bill will allow individuals to keep the insurance they have and preserves choice of Drs, hospitals, and health plans.
It also eliminates the antitrust exemption for health insurers, increasing competition in the insurance marketplace.
If the Senate passes S.1679, the bills will go to Conference Committee where members from both chambers will meet to draft a compromise bill. Once the bill is written, it must go back to the House and Senate for a final vote.
For more info: http://www.whitehouse.gov/issues/health-care/plan
November 8th, 2009 at 11:23 am
There are no ends to the grand delusions of those who identify as Tea Party–baggers. It’s something they swallowed when they became their last incarnation–culture warriors. They have tried to soften that with a totally illogical to the point of silly claim on the spirit of the Boston Tea Party. It’s like Sarah Palinesque logic has permeated every quarter of their fairly empty heads. I’ll bet if you smell the breath of any Tea Party “patriot”, you’ll smell Limbaugh or Beck on their breaths like a raging halitosis.
All they know is the lies being spouted as truth on that mega propaganda machine, Fixed News, and from the slimy lower colon of Rushbaugh. Any wonder they are the butt of so many jokes and parodies. It’s like the clowns in the circus not knowing they are the clowns. If you squint, and use only one eye and wear a headset to give you a loud cocophony of sound, and only look one direction, a crowd of 15 can turn into thousands and a few of the same old, tireless pontificators in the letters to the editor can seem like a glorious mandate for right wing change–until you open your eyes again. So what are these people on, that they can so delude themselves?
November 8th, 2009 at 11:58 am
Jurgen, you ridicule, mock, and conjure foul images, but you make no factual argument. Therefore, one must conclude that you are simply parroting partisan rhetoric with no foundation in reality.
Citizen, Elisabeth, you have taken the bait and are marching in lockstep into the brave new Obama-Pelosi world in which doublespeak is accepted as truth, and every possible action is either required absolutely, or prohibited absolutely.
It has taken three months for Pelosi to find the right legislative bribes to obtain a bare majority for this legislation. Go to Rick Larsen’s web page and see what he obtained for you in exchange for your freedom of choice.
This will not stand.
November 8th, 2009 at 12:30 pm
Jurgen & Spinnwolf,
Because propaganda consists of all attempts to influence public opinion, we must remember that it exists on all sides of the ideological divide in America. Unfortunately, humans tend to harbor beliefs that are simply not true. Indeed, humans excel at self-delusion. Hence, we must always be willing to forgo our beliefs whenever they are not well supported by empirical evidence. And, that is my problem with Fox News. Much of what is espoused on Fox is wholly fallacious, partisan BS. If you don’t believe me, all you have to do is honestly fact check the Bachmann-Hannity exchange I cited above. Upon doing so, you will discover that the majority of Bachmann’s claims are false.
According Bernays, “Propaganda becomes vicious and reprehensive only when its authors consciously and deliberately disseminate what they know to be lies, or when they aim at effects which they know to be prejudicial to the common good.” (1928, p. 50)
Unfortunately, since we are surrounded with propaganda in our media saturated world, all too many of us desperately need to come back down to an empirically grounded reality. Welcome to the Matrix.
November 8th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
“So much of what they ‘know’ just isn’t so…” –Ronald Reagan
November 8th, 2009 at 12:53 pm
Elisabeth, spinnwolf, Laura, Jurgen, Todd2, and others,
It seems clear that convincing each other that the health care reform bill is either good or bad is unlikely. That being said, many of us may be more open minded if you would simply explain, sans “spin”, the key advantages and disadvantages of the plan. Remember, most of us won’t read a long rant. Plain and simple is most effective.
Thanks!
November 8th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
I am simply stating what I observe and feel. We are on different sides of this debate, but the problem is the debate you are waging is nonsensical-hence the self delusion claim. If one does not mock and ridicule ignorance, then one is not doing one’s job in the arena of political matters. Say something not worthy of ridicule and I’ll bite. Further, Ronald Reagan was a fool and the second worse President in my lifetime behind Bush. What we are fighting is the collective ignorance and bad policies of the Reagan years. The guy was and always only was a mouthpiece for big money and a shill for the corporations who lied his ass off about many matters for which he should have been impeached. So quoting Ronald Reagan helps to explain the depth and longevity of particular delusions. One might as well quote Alfred E. Neuman.
November 8th, 2009 at 2:07 pm
Funny thing that Reagan should both offer a quote and attribute its meaning to his own policies.
But that’s why he was the Great Communicator - all things to all people.
You don’t need to buy into any lies except the ones exhibited by tea partiers to discover that the intent and behavior of this fringe group is contradictory to every slogan they holler.
November 8th, 2009 at 10:29 pm
If you can’t spend the time to read a “long rant” you probably don’t have the time to get any deeper than superficial. Is that the kind of info you operate on? Superficial? It is most likely the depth of the result that comes up when you then try to encapsulate your thoughts. Superficial! How many of your deep thoughts can fit on the head of a pin barely inserted under your first epidermal layer? Superficial and not many to boot.
November 9th, 2009 at 6:54 am
Was Einstein “superficial” when he deduced E=mc2?
The best analysts are those who can distill the essence of a complex issue and provide an executive summary in a page or less. As it relates solely to the health care reform bill adopted by the House, what are its primary advantages and disadvantages? What problems does it solve? What problems does it create?
Based on comments posted, it appears Todd2, Worst Ever 43, Elisabeth and Jurgen support the bill, while AFY, spinnwolf, and Laura oppose it.
Why?
Assuming you are not posting to simply waste your time - and your goal is to actually impact public opinion - what are the key reasons, in your opinion, to support or oppose this bill?
November 9th, 2009 at 10:22 am
If we are interested in reducing the cost of health care insurance there are ways to do it, Tort reform, allowing across state line purchases, enpowering the consumer. This house bill is not about reducing cost but it is about creating some huge new government bureaucracies that will only increase cost. This bill does exactly the opposite of enpowering the consumer, it enpowers the government. More cost will ultimately lead to rationing as it has in other countries where the government has taken health care decisions out of the hands of the private sector.
Whatever the problems creating the increase in health insurance today, those problems are not dealt with in this bill piece of legislation but instead made worst.
AFY!!thesheepdog!!!
AFY!!thesheepdog!!!
November 9th, 2009 at 11:11 am
Of course he was. I mean, one look at how much time he spent on his hair says all you need to know about just how superficial the man was.
BTW, I’m still trying to find a copy of this so-called “Constitution” that Spinnwolf thinks so highly of that he recommends I read it twice.
I read The Hobbit twice. That was a good read. Does The Constitution have a dragon in it?
(Don’t spoil the ending for me, please.)
November 9th, 2009 at 11:11 am
Gee Lucky, I thought I had made it clear. I support it because even though it is just the first model, it is in fact a plan rather than the plan of just letting the insurance industry continue to treat us as if they were the death panels. Frankly I’d like to hear some tangible thoughts on the subject from those who oppose it. So far all we’ve heard from that quarter is more parroting of already long discredited fear information and a closed mindedness that does not add up to intelligence.
In an amazing case of the pot calling the kettle, Spinwolf has taken issue with my style and spin with the classic obfuscation of calling for facts, which he/she has never provided, to support his/her spin. The real only question is do we start to provide public health or not. A majority of the people say it’s time. The amount of support the other side is claiming against the idea is being manipulated by them. All sources say the American people, by a large majority, want a public health care plan or at least options other than once more subjecting themselves to the whims of big business.
The arguments against have been nothing but fear of losing what we have. Fear of losing our place as number 37 in the world. We’re number 37, we’re number 37! 37 or die! You can pry number 37 from my cold, dead hands!! Republicans want to loudly proclaim that we can not do any better than any other country in designing a system. We’ll never be as good as Canada, being as good as many countries in Europe just isn’t possible. We’re number 37 and we like it! Why are we in so much fear of losing mediocrity? These are the questions and facts don’t really mean much other than the fact that people want reform now and are willing to even accept this first weak attempt in the interest of moving somewhere other than further behind the rest of the world.
November 9th, 2009 at 11:25 am
“Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex. It takes a touch of genius — and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.”
-Albert Einstein
AFY!!thesheepdog!!!
November 9th, 2009 at 11:26 am
AFY, thanks for your summary. I admit a certain level of ignorance on the actual bill; however, I believe that the problem is not simply the cost of health care insurance but the need for universal coverage. It’s clear that insurance premiums will never be affordable for a number of citizens, so lowering the cost will not solve the problem of universal coverage. Do you think that’s a problem? Does this bill address that problem? If not, why?
Apexnerd, you are too funny! BTW, the Constitution does have a dragon and … it’s HUGE and two-headed! Hope I didn’t spoil it for you.
Jurgen, thanks for your post. I must be dopey this morning because I’m still not sure exactly why you support this bill other than the fact that it is an attempt to solve some undefined problem. I realize you disagree with those who oppose the bill, but can you simply ignore them for a moment and state what problems are solved by this particular bill. What problems are not solved?
November 9th, 2009 at 11:49 am
One to two trillion is the estimated cost of the pending health care bills in congress, also there is 60 billions in fraud in medicare (government run health care) alone!
What is being debated isn’t reducing cost but will continue along the path of what is increasing cost.
The cost of health care is related to availability.
What we need to do to reduce cost and improve availabilty is change the system from having middle men in the middle, government or big insurance, instead by having the consumer dealing directly with the those that deliver. Safety nets are not bad when needed but creating a system that is one big safety net is.
Albert was right, KISS is the answer, it always is if you want efficienty, cost control and better accessibility, Keep It Simple Stupid! There are plans that would lead along that path but of course bigger government or looking towards big insurance for a solution is a path in the opposite direction.
And with the house bill that is the path we are on.
AFY!!thesheepdog!!!
November 9th, 2009 at 12:04 pm
Really Albert?
It’s easier to make complex models and still contain every interaction, connection and nuance,
than it is to simply simplify and contradict?
Hmmm.
Are you talking about Congressional action or quantum physics?
One thing’s certain AFY!!! has no idea what you’ve just said unless you’re featured on YouTube.
November 9th, 2009 at 12:10 pm
Lucky they should try to reproduce whatever bullet proof material your cortex is protected by from plain English, and shroud our troops in it.
November 9th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
Ciz, I wouldn’t call it herding slugs, slugs don’t deserve the reference. Boys on the right, the tutorial is over on this post. Feel free to continue to mill around and chase your tail or run headlong into the wall at full speed, it’s your constitutionally granted right.
November 9th, 2009 at 12:16 pm
AFY, I agree and disagree. Absolutely, a substantial portion of the current system’s cost is wasted - or is consumed as overhead - and is not used to provide direct care of disease or to promote health. Can these costs be substantially reduced or eliminated by eliminating government and insurance companies? Perhaps, but that seems unrealistic.
In an ideal situation, insurance is designed to transfer the risk of a significant or catastrophic, but unlikely, event. In the medical arena, insurance is ideal to cover the costs of very expensive hospital stays, surgeries, cancer treatments, etc. As health insurance evolved to cover fairly inexpensive and routine events, such as doctor visits, the premiums necessarily increased dramatically to cover these costs, many of which could easily be self-insured on a pay-as-you-go basis.
Theoretically, health insurance would involve a very low premium and very high deductible; however, that design provides a financial incentive to avoid preventative check-ups and routine care and results in more expensive (pay-me-now vs. pay-me-later) treatment. An analogy is the choice to save money by not changing your car’s oil only to need a complete engine overhaul.
The issue of adverse selection also impacts the cost of insurance premiums. Young, healthy people may choose not to participate, whereas those who are likely to need medical care will choose to be insured. Adverse selection inhibits the sharing of insurable risk. If everyone participates, the overall premium is theoretically lower, and there is no need to deny coverage for pre-existing conditions.
For obvious reasons, healthcare is a complex issue and does not respond favorably to standard free market solutions. We rightfully don’t discard our elderly or infirmed, so it’s important that we care for them as well as we can. For an evolved society, the financial burden of health care exists outside of the free market.
November 9th, 2009 at 12:19 pm
Jurgen, thanks for the complement. Maybe I have something marketable in my head that I wasn’t aware of.
Your personal attacks are sure to gain you many friends and extend your influence everywhere you go.
The reality is that your comments are unclear. You are simply not making any points, and you’re not getting through. I was trying to help, but I see there is no use.
November 9th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
I’m sorry you’re confused Lucky, but if you don’t clearly get why I want health care, then I don’t know what language to speak to you in. Where, pray tell are your points? You are missing a step or two there.
November 9th, 2009 at 12:40 pm
I’m not asking why you want health care, I’m asking why you support this specific bill.
I have not tried to make any points; I’m simply asking questions to elicit yours, which I obviously failed to do.
BTW, this is scary even to admit, but AFY’s comments are clear. I’d like to say the same for yours. How about a simple list called “This is what I like about this bill” or “These problem are solved by this bill.”
November 9th, 2009 at 12:45 pm
Lucky7
The problems are twofold in my opinion.
1. Health care (HC) costs are out of control.
2. Because of (1) insurance is required to pay for all HC expenses.
I believe that if we start addressing the REAL issue (1) then problem (2) goes away. So why are HC costs so out of control? Here are some of the leading factors in my opinion:
1. Over regulation
Placing mandates on how and what must be in insurance will increase insurance premiums for all. Also insurers will drop out of the market if the mandates set are unfeasible. Large employers will drop coverage since paying the “fine” is cheaper than insurance coverage.
2. Too much bureaucracy
After a person receives HC services a convoluted song and dance ensues between HC provider, and Insurance provider. This results in a tremendous amount of costly paperwork and administrative overhead. If a direct relationship between HC provider and HC consumer is promoted less paperwork and overhead would result in dramatically lower administrative costs.
3. Costs hidden from consumers
When a consumer is shielded from the true costs of HC and is only aware of the copay they are uninterested in “shopping around” and using market forces to drive down prices. Of course this applies to only non-emergency HC services.
4. Malpractice costs out of control
The health insurance reform bill passed by the house does nothing to address these points. In fact it takes steps to ADD to the problems in each of the above areas. It seems like the Democrats are trying to put out a fire by throwing gasoline on it, then they say “better to do something, than nothing.”
So what is a better solution?
Instead of the hyper focus on getting everyone insured we need to re-instate market forces.
1. Encourage more Health Spending accounts in combination with catastrophic insurance coverage.
2. Enourage payment at time of service. Point 1 would help encourage this.
2. Decouple health insurance from your employer. Point 1 would help encourage this.
3. Enact tort reform measures to help decrease malpractice insurance.
4. For poor and elderly modify the current HC welfare system (medicare/medicaid) from one that emulates insurance to one that emulates the food stamps program. This would allow for payment at time of service and cut down on administrative costs. It would also encourage consumers to consider costs of service as well as increase the number of HC service providers willing to accept these types of patients.
Wouldn’t it be better if everyone could afford HC services instead of needing to rely (or being forced to buy) insurance? I think its possible to achieve this and would result in better and more accessible care for all at the same time cutting the amount of waste and overhead in the system.
November 9th, 2009 at 12:56 pm
This bill is to solve the problem of 47 million people without insurance. The prez in his speech to joint congress in Sept said 32 million. I think he forgot about the 15 million illegal aliens. At any rate that is 15% of the estimated population of the US. All this reform for 15%!
This health care crisis reform with take money for 4-5 years then begin to FORCE people to buy insurance in 2013. Is there really a crisis?
WE43 has claimed repeatedly 45,000 a year die because they are not provided healthcare insurance. This bill will let 225,000 die before they are FORCED to get insurance. Do they really care about these people on ‘death row’? Is it really acrisis? Is it really about health care?
The CBO has state that 96% of the population will be covered by 2019. They also estimate there will be 26 million will not be covered at that time. For those supporting a this bill and a government run healthcare is this the degree of success you are willing to accept for 1.2 trillion dollars?
Can someone explain to me how we spend 1.2 trillion dollars to put this reform in place and it will reduce the federal deficit by 104 billion dollars? Does that mean the government is taking in more money than it needs to run this reform? Doesn’t that trouble you?
November 9th, 2009 at 12:58 pm
According to the Washington Post:
The House bill includes:
– A historic Medicaid expansion that would provide free health care to all Americans with incomes below 150 percent of the federal poverty level.
– A crackdown on the insurance industry, including bans on lifetime limits, premium disparity based on health status and sex, and coverage denials based on preexisting conditions. The bill also would end a federal antitrust exemption that has for decades protected firms from federal investigations.
– Subsidies to help households earning up to $88,000 in annual income for a family of four purchase coverage.
– Funding to create insurance exchanges to serve people who don’t have employer coverage.
– A government insurance option to compete with private plans on the exchange.
– A surcharge on taxpayers who earn more than $500,000 a year, or $1 million a year for families.
– An employer mandate that would require companies to cover their employees, though small businesses would be exempted.
– An individual mandate that would require people to buy health insurance.
– Up to $400 billion in Medicare and Medicaid cuts, including to a Medicare Advantage managed-care program that serves nearly 11 million seniors.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/07/AR2009110703201.html
As for fiscal impacts at the Federal level, Elizabeth has posted excellent documents from the Congressional Budget Office and MIT (see her posts above).
Over the long run, this bill promises to save all of us a huge amount of money, both in taxes and in premiums.
November 9th, 2009 at 1:16 pm
According to the Peter G. Peterson Foundation, which is now headed by David M. Walker, former Comptroller General of the United States and head of the U.S. Government Accountability Office,
“Health care costs are more than twice as high per capita in America as in the rest of the developed world, often with limited or no real differences in outcomes or longevity. Our current health care system favors chronic care over cures, specialists over primary care physicians, and intensive over preventive care. It also leaves over 47 million Americans uninsured. Without comprehensive reform, growing health care costs could bankrupt the country and deny increasing numbers of people much-needed care.”
http://www.pgpf.org/issues/healthcarereform/
The PGPF also publishes a citizen’s guild to the nation’s long-term financial situation, which is straightforward and easy to read. The guide explains what will happen to the nation’s finances by 2030, if we simply do nothing about healthcare (hint: the nation will be bankrupt; see also Elizabeth’s posts above).
You can download your own guide at:
http://www.pgpf.org/getinvolved/citizens-guide/
November 9th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
Todd2, nothing in your post of items bother you?
9 items- 200 pages of legalese for each item?
‘A historic Medicaid expansion that would provide free health care to all Americans with incomes below 150 percent of the federal poverty level.’ ‘ Up to $400 billion in Medicare and Medicaid cuts, including to a Medicare Advantage managed-care program that serves nearly 11 million seniors.’ Somebody is going to be harmed by this. Any idea of who it will be?
Over the long run, this bill promises to save all of us a huge amount of money, both in taxes and in premiums. Really. It really says the words ‘promises to save….’ What page and section. This I have to see.
November 9th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
Bellinghammer,
THANK YOU for identifying the problems (as you see them), how you would address them, and why you believe the House bill doesn’t solve them. I agree with much of what you have written and find several of your creative suggestions worthy of consideration.
Here’s an irony: It’s likely that, during a typical year, more people are able afford health care than health insurance. In other words, unless a person suffers a catastrophic illness or serious injury, their health care costs are likely less than their premiums. Of course, that depends on whether and to what extent their premiums are subsidized by their employers. Insurance is needed, of course, to cover those extreme cases.
In any event, thank you for your comments. They are exactly what I was looking for. Maybe I’m not as superficial and dense as others may think!
November 9th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
“The real destroyer of the liberties of the people is he who spreads among them bounties, donations and benefits.”
-Plutarch
That is exactly what this bill does!
So society should pay for health care: cancer, heart ailments, etc but should it also pay for obesity, smoking, depressions, etc?
How long after government is paying for health care does government then start telling people how to live their life because of health care costs?
What was medicare and medicaid originally suppose to cost and what have their cost exploded to, this program will be no different, cost will balloon way beyond estimates, then what, rationing, lifestyle restrictions, the lost of freedom of choice, all in the name of reducing health care cost will be the mantra.
Individual freedom the lost of which is never worth a handout called health care or anything else government might promise.
We must take a different path from bigger government if we ever want to fix our problems because over and over agin government has proven that their solution to solving problems is bigger government and what problem has bigger government actually fixed?
AFY!!thesheepdog!!!
November 9th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
Incidentally, you can watch Peter G. Peterson discuss these fiscal issues, and more, in a fascinating video featuring input from Alan Greenspan and Richard Haas, right here:
http://www.aspeninstitute.org/events/2009/09/29/book-talk-featuring-pete-peterson
November 9th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
AFY,
Are you blaming escalating healthcare costs on the existence of Medicare/Medicaid?
I think any rational analysis of healthcare cost drivers would suggest a host of other factors.
Currently, Medicare/Medicaid covers the healthcare expenditures of everyone in the nation over age 65. But, these entitlement programs have NOT restricted my stepmom’s freedom of choice, nor have they restrictred her lifestyle or rationed her healthcare, as you claim. What you say is simply not true.
November 9th, 2009 at 1:37 pm
Sorry, the video I posted above was hosted by Walter Isaacson, not Richard Haas.
November 9th, 2009 at 1:39 pm
Lucky7, Bellinghammer really did lay it out well.
I have explained to people that my parents were a single payer healthcare provider until the 1970’s. For most items flu, stitches broken arm-leg and babies they paid out of pocket. Hospitals and doctors let you pay off over time. They did have what was called hospitalization insurance a low cost insurance for major illness or accidents that required hospitalization.
The question is what happened that that system failed? What caused doctors to have to give up their home offices and join groups? What caused medical facilities to demand payment on service or insurance? Isn’t this what the reform bills are trying to recreate? Mmmm-I inclined to think the objective is not really being talked about.
November 9th, 2009 at 1:40 pm
Lucky seven, and others,
I hate to break this to you, but health care reform isn’t a partisan issue. Nevertheless, Repubicans and Tea Party folks have turned reform into a political football in hope of using this issue to further divide the American people.
Like former Republican President Nixon, President Obama seeks to tweak America’s private health care system, rather than replace it.
Like Obama, Nixon sought to make access universal, affordable, and place more emphasis on preventative care. He sought to limit out of pocket expenditures and ensure that Americans do not have to go bankrupt over a catastrophic illness or accident.
In other words, in the 1970’s, Republicans and conservatives were supporting health care reform that is very similar to Obama’s plan. It was the liberals who were opposing it.
So, what has changed?
Only one thing. Americans have become so cynical and mistrusting of government that they will do anything to short circuit an attempt to find a solution to a problem that is going to bankrupt this nation.
The facts and figures I have printed in previous posts are not the product of “spin.”
Do I know how to write spin? Of course I do. Am I writing spin? No. I’m attempting to share facts and figures that were derived from Congressional reports and the Congessional Budget Office. I have also conducted indepth research on past health care reform proposals in order to develop a deeper understanding of our nation’s history on this topic.
Both Democrat and Republican Presidents have tackled this issue. Why? One of the most cherished goals of our nation is to assure every American an equal opportunity to lead a full and productive life.
In pursuit of that goal, we have adopted social programs and developed a public education system, opening the doors to millions of our neighbors who are seeking equal opportunities in education, jobs and even voting.
Without adequate healthcare, no one can make full use of his/her talents and opportunities. Just this year, we will see $248 billion loss in worker productivity, because of a broken health care system.
Why am I supporting reform? Because I believe the American people deserve better than what we have today. Each year, insured Americans pay $100 billion dollars to pay for uninsured Americans. It’s time to get a handle on health care spending.
Yes, I’m excited to hear the House passed HR 3962. I’ll be even more excited when I hear the Senate has passed S.1679.
Why?
Because, after working in the legislature, I understand how the legislative process works. The final bill will not look anything like HR 3962 or S 1679. The final health care reform bill will be re-written by appointed members of the Senate and the House. This process is known as “Conference Committee.”
The final product, which will hopefully include the best features of both bills, (plus the President’s input) will be sent back to the House and Senate for a final vote. I can guarantee you we will see a lot of paper on the floor before this one is decided!
If the Compromise bill is passed by both chambers, it will be forwarded to the President for his signature.
Right now, the most important thing any of us can do is read the bills and fiscal analysis and provide our elected officials with meaningful input as to what options we think need to be included in the final bill.
By not over reaching on health care reform, Obama is seeking to move America one step closer to a country where no one dies or is rendered helpless because they do not have access to health care.
I admire him for his courage, just as I admired Richard Nixon and Bill Clinton for attempting to provide all Americans access to health care.
There’s an old saying, “only Nixon could go to China” Perhaps health care reform will be Obama’s china.
More information about the legislative process (how a bill becomes law) can be found at.
http://www.votesmart.org/resource_govt101_02.php
November 9th, 2009 at 1:49 pm
Elisabeth,
Not sure why you singled me out since I haven’t mentioned anything about partisanship. In fact, all I’ve done is ask questions.
That being said, I appreciate everything you’ve written; however, what specifically about the House’s bill do you like? How will the House’s bill address the problems as you see them?
I understand that the final bill will be a compromise; however, it’s still important that the bill adopted have some redeeming value. What exactly is that value? I’m not looking for more facts and figures, just specific solutions to specific problems.
I don’t believe it’s good enough to support a bill simply because it’s designed to solve problems. It’s much more important that it actually does solve problems.
Thanks.
November 9th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
Todd2, why do you call medicare an entitlement program?
My spouse and I paid taxes into medicare for 40+ years. Now we pay 96.50 each per month premiums and 30% of the charges after we reach our deductibles. In addition we have to buy a supplemental insurance to cover items medicare does not cover. Entitlement, yep just like the social security that some say the government GIVES me. Not that I paid into that for 40 years also. Time value of money says that is MY MONEY. Hardly an entitlement.
November 9th, 2009 at 3:04 pm
L7, it good to have a reasonble discussion, between people who may not agree but understand that no side has all the answers, when you know you don’t have all the answers then you have a trendency to listen more and spout less. Therefore L7 you have to forgive Madam E, she is not a very good listener.
It is well known that medicare/medicaid are not carrying their full load (cost), their cost is being past on to others to pay. It is kinda like when you give someone a free education then someone else has to pay the bill, there is no such thing as a free lunch they say and that has a lot of truth to it.
L7, you are right you can’t blame medicare/medicaid solely for the increases in health care cost, there are a lot of factors for sure, and they be only part of the problem.
But it feels to me that the 2000 + page solution just passed by the house is a lot more of the same and very little of anything that would make things different.
I have attached a good outline of a solution to solve the current entitlement problem, the solution there can also flipped to include health care costs in many ways.
The Medicare Trustees tell us that Medicare’s expected future obligations exceeded premiums and dedicated taxes by $89 trillion (measured in current dollars). No, that’s not a misprint. To put that number in perspective, Medicare’s liability is about 5 1/2 times the size of Social Security’s ($18 trillion) and about six times the size of the entire U.S. economy.
http://www.forbes.com/2009/05/19/medicare-ticking-bomb-opinions-contributors-goodman.html
I know I don’t have all the answers but I do believe the solutions we need are not more of the same of what we are doing.
AFY!!thesheepdog!!!
November 9th, 2009 at 3:14 pm
AFY,
Yes, it’s certainly enjoyable to have a reasonable discussion. Sure wish everyone would check their emotions at the “door.” I actually have quite a bit of experience with health insurance; but I am undecided about this particular bill. I’m still in search of clearly defined problems and solutions. What are we trying to accomplish? How does this bill do that? How much will it cost? What problems are not solved? What problems are created.
These are rhetorical only as I don’t have the stomach to continue on this thread.
Are we still on for 4:30?
November 9th, 2009 at 3:20 pm
I’ll be there.
AFY!!thesheepdog!!!
November 9th, 2009 at 3:20 pm
Apex, at the end of The Constitution … Snape kills Dumbledore.
There, I’ve saved you the time.
November 9th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
Lucky, now you see what I go through when I simply ask people follow-ups. They automatically assume there is a reason behind it other than simply hoping they’ll expand on their thoughts or provide some links or factual evidence about the topic.
November 9th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
We all know better, he who sees all and knows all is also the trap master!
AFY!!thesheepdog!!!
November 9th, 2009 at 3:34 pm
37th but:
A recent “Investor’s Business Daily” article
provided very interesting statistics from a survey by
the United Nations International Health Organization.
Percentage of men and women who survived a
cancer five years after diagnosis:
U..S.
65%
England
46%
Canada
42%
Percentage of patients
diagnosed with diabetes who
received treatment within six months:
U.S.
93%
England 15%
Canada
43%
Percentage of seniors
needing hip
replacement who
received it within six months:
U.S.
90%
England 15%
Canada 43%
Percentage referred to a medical specialist who
see one within one month:
U.S.
77%
England 40%
Canada
43%
Number of MRI scanners (a prime diagnostic tool)
per million people:
U.S.
71
England 14
Canada 18
Percentage of seniors (65+), with low income, who
say they are in “excellent health”:
U.S.
12%
England
2%
Canada
6%
Must have been paid for by the US health insurance companies.
November 9th, 2009 at 4:24 pm
SilentMajority,
I don’t think there is a “United Nations International Health Organization,” unless you are referring to the World Health Organization.
And, as an aside, Investors Business Daily also recently ran an article entitled, “45% Of Doctors Would Consider Quitting If Congress Passes Health Care Overhaul,” which is extremely misleading.
Far better data considering physician support for healthcare reform is available from an article published in the New England Journal of Medicine here:
http://healthcarereform.nejm.org/?p=1790
As for the survey you mentioned, I have not been able to locate it yet.
November 9th, 2009 at 4:25 pm
Doctors would consider quitting practicing medicine? That seems pretty far fetched. What else would they do?
Not a lot of journalism jobs these days.
November 9th, 2009 at 4:27 pm
Sam, yes I now see what you go through and I understand why they pay you the BIG bucks!
Where have you been, and why did you let me get into this?!
This is great experience if I ever want to teach kindergarten.
FYI, See you there!
November 9th, 2009 at 4:31 pm
I just quickly checked the site for the World Health Organization.
Healthy life expectancy at birth for Canada is m/f (years, 2003): 70/74
For the United Kingdom, it is m/f (years, 2003): 69/72
And, for the U.S., it is m/f (years, 2003): 67/71
Those statistics are available here: http://www.who.int/countries/en/#U
November 9th, 2009 at 4:41 pm
Was the subject of this article, ‘Local Republicans Protest Outside Rep. Larsen’s Office’, a Tea Party event?
The most recent local ‘Tea Party’ event I’m aware of was the one on October 21, 2009.
The Tea Party website calendar of events listed ‘American Freedom 101′, sponsored by Evergreen Freedom Foundation’s Citizen Action Network’ on November 7. The program, according to the website, teaches how to become a “Freedom Fighter”.
I’m not sure if it’s an actual Tea Party event or if they’re just sponsoring it.
There was an announcement on the website that Senator Ranker is hosting a Health Care Town Hall on Monday, Nov. 23, in Bellingham, but there was no suggestion for the Tea Partiers to attend.
The only other event I saw posted on the Tea Party calendar of events was the ‘Conservative Enthusiasts’ regular monthly meeting on Thursday, November 19, at the Master Builders Association Building in Bellevue.
On the agenda for this meeting will “be a viewing of a 30-minute video clip prelude to a longer film being released by Dick Armey’s FreedomWorks–subject: success of the grassroots Tea Party Movement.”
Also scheduled for that meeting is a discussion on ” Presenting the Conservative Message - What we can do as individuals”
Is the Tea Party movement evolving?
November 9th, 2009 at 4:51 pm
Camille - no, it was a Whatcom GOP event, although a woman e-mailed me angrily telling me it was an event not just for Republicans. I had to explain that the event was sponsored by the local party and they’re the ones who announced it to me.
November 9th, 2009 at 5:24 pm
Again, you’re right, Sam. We (the B’ham Tpartiers) were informed of the event and we chose to participate. Camille needs to get real … LOL … this was another ‘instant’ event …
November 9th, 2009 at 5:34 pm
Elisabeth,
I never said we were a Democracy, I do not know why you would say that. If you go to one of my comments, it states that we were a REPUBLIC but I feel it is now an Oligarchy. Please do not attribute me to saying something I did not. They gave us a Republic, but as Ben Franklin replied to a woman when she asked what did you give us…..”He said a Republic if you can keep it.” He obviously knew too well what might take place; exactly what is going on today, it is rapidly deteriorating.
November 9th, 2009 at 5:37 pm
Thanks Sam!
November 9th, 2009 at 5:39 pm
I couldn’t help but notice the Gadsden flags.
November 9th, 2009 at 6:17 pm
Todd2′ I just posted the info for the hell of it. I know there is no legitimate argument, no legitimate statistics, no legitimate publications or information and no legitimate reasons that can be put forth when one is against the proposed healthcare reform bill.
Maybe 45% of doctors won’t quit. More likely no one will aspire to be doctors if a medicare or other government run health care program is implemented. Although the government could throw 2 or 3 trillion dollars into a bonus program to make every one want to be a doctor.
The fact is there are 2 camps. One wants reforms that the government promotes changes to be made in the private sector. The other camp wants reforms where government takes over health care. Or in other words one camp thinks the individual is responsible for their own health care and the other camp thinks someone other than themselves is responsible for their individual health care.
There is not much room for compromise there. It’s personal values.
November 9th, 2009 at 6:43 pm
SM, I believe you have just sliced through the chaos and found the simple truth.
(And, beyond that, there are some of us who use the medical system regularly, and others
seldom or never. That, too, is a mindset that probably will not change, and has a profound
effect upon our view of this issue.)
November 9th, 2009 at 6:46 pm
Lucky seven,
You asked questions, I answered them.
Nice to see you are “well versed on insurance issues”
November 9th, 2009 at 7:32 pm
Laura Says:
November 6th, 2009 at 9:42 pm
As worst ever says, we need to educate those LIKE worst ever who are clueless about the take over that is going on in this country. Clueless about government getting involved and taking over corporations. Taking over healthcare. Everything they touch is in trouble from Fanny Mae, Freddie Mac, US Mail, Am Trac, Medicare in a few years, Social Security. Wake up! Most of the tea party people have things they would rather be doing but we have to babysit our government because they are out of control. Those of you who don’t get it are going to drag the rest of us down with you. Please, educate YOURSELF!
Laura Says:
November 6th, 2009 at 9:59 pm
So, one never speaks out because you will silence them with your quote about being a fool? A fool can also remain silent while they are led to slaughter by those who try to belittle them for speaking out.
I am sure that would have been an excellent quote for anyone who tried to say the world is not flat back when they thought it was…who was the fool? Any intelligent person WILL criticize, condemn or complain IF THERE IS INJUSTICE GOING ON.
Those who do not want to be opposed will try and silence their opposition in whatever way they can find that protects their agenda. So Worst-Ever, say what you want, WE WILL NOT BE SILENCED! Only a fool would remain silent in the face of injustice!
Wow. Laura, I worked ten years in the legislature and never saw anything that would lead to this kind of a rant. Hell, we didn’t even have a shredder in any of the offices I worked in!
Our public work was so transparent and open that I find your accusations and fears beyond alarming.
I hope someone is watching these posts. I actually think you are dangerous.
November 9th, 2009 at 7:35 pm
Sam, I have heard it straight from the mouths of doctors, especially the newer ones, that they will indeed quit. Why? Because after spending years studying instead of working, and going into debt instead of building a nest egg, they will now be told by some bureaucarat in Washington how much they are ALLOWED to earn. My guess is they will probably go into the private sector doing something other than treating patients—research, teaching, writing, consulting. Something that will allow them to earn a decent wage and pay off their debt.
No matter how hard they try to kill it, the free market will always emerge in one form or another. A doctor could always set up as a “health counselor” and charge a fair fee.
November 9th, 2009 at 7:35 pm
How much do you think it pays to do research, Spinn!?
November 9th, 2009 at 7:56 pm
Depends if you are working for big pharma or a little private college that doesn’t accept federal largesse. Also depends on whether you are extrinsically or intrinsically motivated.
The intrinsically motivated might put up with low pay from a government health care system, but if they can’t have free reign to prescribe what they know is right, then the intrinsic motivation wouldn’t be there either.
The Brits have had to import all their doctors from India. Doctoring has become work the Brits won’t do. Maybe we could import our doctors from Mexico if we get to rationed single payer universal coverage.
November 9th, 2009 at 8:05 pm
Elisabeth, when you worked in the state legislature, were they passing 1,900 page bills designed to reshape 10 to 20 per cent of the Washington State economy? Were they passing bills that would throw the state into astronomical debt for generations to come?
I don’t see anything “dangerous” in Laura’s post. I do see a great deal of danger for every citizen of this nation in the “health care” bill that came out of the U.S. House.
November 9th, 2009 at 8:05 pm
Gee Sam, what made you think the woman was angry? Do you think maybe you might have misinterpreted her email? I mean there is no body language to see, no tone of voice to detect that, was she swearing at you or using bad words? I guess I am curious why you would say that?
I know as an original starter of one of the tea party groups that it was spontaneous and spread like wildfire via the internet. Many of the recent things have been spontaneous and many different groups have jumped on the bandwagon, wanting to be part of the movement but that does not take away from the fact that it is grassroots. These other groups support or start things and let us know because we agree on a lot of the same issues. Glenn Beck 9/12 groups are tea party people too.
There are millions of us. If you think about the almost two million (which they will not report correctly) in DC, then all the others across the country, in many cities, in every state on 9/12 that turned out for local protest; then the people that honked or did a thumbs up in approval of our signs (we got hundreds of positive responses at ours); then those who were at home that approve but are silent and do not turn out and hold a sign or were just not out driving to offer their response, like my brother (he said he agrees with us but just doesn’t do signs), WE ARE IN THE MILLIONS! I bet many would not say they are affiliated with any party but are just there speaking out in protest.
November 9th, 2009 at 8:12 pm
Are you saying you weren’t angry, Laura, in your e-mail? Each time you write seems to indicate otherwise.
Also I find it odd you’re getting defensive about Tea Party issues when I wrote about a local GOP event that they created. Perhaps they invited others, but it was their event. It’s not a judgment either way, it’s simply a fact.
November 9th, 2009 at 8:24 pm
Sam, it was only a GOP event in that the initial email had the GOP name on it. Can’t really say they sponsored it, since the GOP didn’t spend any money, provide any signs, or do anything other than send out an email, which several of us forwarded to our own lists. No candidates were promoted, and in truth I saw no difference whatsoever between this event and the previous one which had no partisan label attached to anything. As always, we are individuals acting independently each with our own private reasons and motivations.
November 9th, 2009 at 8:46 pm
Elisabeth,
You do not like what I say so you portray me as dangerous? Isn’t that a little reckless and irresponsible? You may want to look deep within yourself before you call someone else dangerous. You are more than welcome to report me. I just read your 11/9, 1:40 pm blog. I understand the problem now. I am not going to waste my time or energy to address you. It would be pointless, but it does help me understand where you are coming from. I also fear you. Our nation is torn; and both sides, I believe, do fear the mindset of those with an opposing view. I say this with concern not malice.
November 9th, 2009 at 9:16 pm
No, I was not angry Sam. I was very amazed to read that statement from you, actually hurt and shocked. I thought you would be interested in the information I offered on people who participate in these things. There has been an erroneous accusation that the Tea party movement was GOP and it was not. This is how people get the wrong impression. There are many people from both sides but neither party started it or continues it, they do join in or if they suggest a turn out for something, people are free to do so. No one should be excluded but they do not all want to be labeled one or the other. We are American citizens voicing our concerns. I am sorry and perplexed you read anger into that. As far as the other statements, they are felt strongly, otherwise I would not be taking my time to address the issues as are others.
November 9th, 2009 at 9:54 pm
These are so Not real people.
November 9th, 2009 at 10:16 pm
The GOP sent me a press release announcing opposition to Larsen’s stance on the bill and then said they were protesting at his office. I received no notification from any other organization that it was any type of joint event.
It was a Whatcom GOP event and that’s my stance and I believe it’s totally legit. I have no idea why people are trying to spin it.
November 9th, 2009 at 10:19 pm
Laura, the tone of your e-mails, and what you write here, suggests you’re upset that I wrote it was a Whatcom County Republican Party event. Every time you write you continue to seem angry. I apologize if that’s not the case, it’s not personal either, and you seem to be getting pretty worked up for no reason.
November 9th, 2009 at 10:28 pm
I am confused. The only rule for this site said to be civil. Angry, Dangerous, Not Real? I think we all need a refresher:
There are two definitions of the the Golden Rule: It can be said in a positive or negative way.
Do unto others AS you would have them do unto you.
Do NOT do unto someone else what you would NOT want done unto you.
November 10th, 2009 at 1:54 am
I wonder . . . to what extent was Mencken right? . . .
“When a candidate for public office faces the voters he does not face men of sense; he faces a mob of men whose chief distinguishing mark is the fact that they are quite incapable of weighing ideas, or even of comprehending any save the most elemental—men whose whole thinking is done in terms of emotion, and whose dominant emotion is dread of what they cannot understand.” — H.L. Mencken writing in the Baltimore Sun on July 16, 1920.
“The mob, being composed, in the overwhelming main, of men and women who have not got beyond the ideas and emotions of childhood, hovers, in mental age, around the time of puberty, and chiefly below it. . . .
“Man comes into the world weak and naked, and almost as devoid of intelligence as an oyster, but he brings with him a highly complex and sensitive susceptibility to fear.” Most of us are incapable of getting rid of our childish fears, and being unable to reason, we fall prey to those who are expert in manipulating our fears — “the demagogues, i.e., the professors of mob psychology, who flourish in democratic states.” According to Mencken, “. . . man on the lower levels, though he quickly reaches the limit of his capacity for taking in actual knowledge, remains capable for a long time thereafter of absorbing delusions. What is true daunts him, but what is not true finds lodgment in his cranium with so little resistance that there is only a trifling emission of heat.”
Above quotes taken from H.L. Mencken, Notes on Democracy: A New Edition. Full review is available here: http://www.strike-the-root.com/82/ludlow/ludlow2.html
November 10th, 2009 at 10:09 am
“The Brits have had to import all their doctors from India. Doctoring has become work the Brits won’t do.”
The facts?
Forty percent of all British doctors are white,
Twenty three percent are Asian British Indian trained in British schools,
the rest are from a variety of Asian, Caribbean and African nations,
either trained in accredited British medical schools or qualified for residency under the British medical system.
As usual, spinnwolf talks out his rosette.
November 10th, 2009 at 10:37 am
Where’d you get that info on the doctors, citizen, do you have a link we can see?
November 10th, 2009 at 11:20 am
So, Citizen? Your facts show that a majority of Brit doctors are imported. You don’t “get” that “all” is a bit of hyperbole? You just proved my point. Your last spiteful remark is extremely crude, and the “his” is inappropriate.
November 10th, 2009 at 11:26 am
IMHO HL was right on the New Deal, wrong on WWII and also wrong on the Booboisie, but certainly he be a very interesting character!! It seem in his later years there was a bit of bitterness.
AFY!!thesheepdog!!!
November 10th, 2009 at 11:42 am
Laura,
Then live according to your own advice. (The golden rule). The majority of people who work in government offices are decent, hardworking individuals who do not spend their day taking bribes, plotting to overthrow the government or behaving in other corrupt ways!
Does it surprise you that those of us who work(ed) in government would take offense at your rude comments and unfounded allegations?
And, are you aware how many stalkers haunt the halls of government offices? The violent ones share one trait — angry, seditious speech.
I have a right to be offended by your comments. You have a right to make them (first amendment) but don’t go off whining because someone called you on the rug for obnoxious behavior. Save it for your beer runs with your Libertarian friends.
November 10th, 2009 at 11:53 am
http://www.west-middlesex-hospital.nhs.uk/EasysiteWeb/getresource.axd?AssetID=1208&type=full&servicetype=Attachment
November 10th, 2009 at 11:57 am
No,
It’s true.
Your hyperbole is standard practice
and your implications from your loose tongue are far more offensive than any emanation outta yer nether regions.
IMO, of course.
No offense intended.
November 10th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
Spinwolf,
Yes, I saw 1,900 page bills. And, believe it or not, we even read them! We studied them, we conversed with members of the public about them, and we met with committee staff, lobbyists and other experts to discuss the merits of each measure.
The length or size of a bill does not determine its merit or worth.
Nor does unfocused anger legitimize opposition to government in general or legislation that is supported in principal by a large number of Americans from all sides of the political isle.
What sickens me is the strategy that is being employed to derail health care insurance reform. Your buddy Laura ridiculed me for printing historical documents about health care reform on Latte. But those documents tell a story. A story about how health care reform has been attacked again and again by special interests and opposition parties for more than 50 years. Obama’s plan is very similar to Nixon’s failed plan in 1974. In 1974, Repubicans supported the measure and Liberals opposed it. In 1994, the roles were reversed. And, again in 2009, the roles are reversed.
And, each group uses the same tactics again and again and again. Meanwhile, our nation and our people desperately need health care reform.
Just once, I would like to see the opposition do what’s right for this nation. Have a problem with the language in the bill? Write your legislator (believe it or not, they enjoy working with citizens who can provide critical input on a bill). Or, write your own! I probably have a guide that will teach you how to do it.
But stop the misinformation and fear mongering. It is crippling this nation and will drive it to its knees! (Perhaps that is your real goal - with all of the seditious talk that takes place here).
You are not part of the solution spinwolf, nor is Laura, or Silent Majority, or any of the other commenters who use misinformation to create anger and mistrust on these pages.
You hold out the constitution like it’s the bible, then ridicule the very people who are using the process laid out in the Constitution to create legislation to solve complex public policy issues.
The hypocrisy is astounding!
November 10th, 2009 at 12:20 pm
By comparison, about 37% of American doctors are identified as White.
This link will take you to the AAMC website where you can find the PDF with the graph I’ve used.
http://www.aamc.org/newsroom/pressrel/2006/physician_diversity_facts.pdf
November 10th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
Below is part of an email I got today, it was about a letter to the editor a Dr. Starner Jones wrote;
Dear Sirs:
“During my last night’s shift in the ER,
I had the pleasure of evaluating a patient
with a shiny new gold tooth,
multiple elaborate tattoos,
a very expensive brand of tennis shoes
and a new cellular telephone
equipped with her favorite R&B tune
for a ringtone.
Glancing over the chart,
one could not help noticing her payer status: Medicaid.
She smokes more than one costly pack
of cigarettes every day and,
somehow, still has money to buy beer.
And our Congress expects me
to pay for this woman’s health care?” ……
Methinks this be more than one man’s opinion!
AFY!!thesheepdog!!!
November 10th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
Citizen,
The state of Colorado has some interesting statistics on doctor demographics. In fact, they have a program that pays for the recruitment of doctors from the Phillipines, Iran, Pakistan and other nations.
The state also assists recruits with visas and citizenship applications, if they decide they want to remain in the United States.
One of the features of the House healthcare reform bill is recruitment and training of U.S. medical staff.
The state of Colorado will tell you the doctor shortage already exists. So, how do we want to tackle the issue –continue to bring in doctors trained in other nations, or create programs to train our own?
November 10th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
Is it a doctor shortage in CO, Elisabeth, or is it a family practice doctor shortage?
November 10th, 2009 at 1:41 pm
My point was only to counter that importing medical students and doctors isn’t a sign that ‘Doctoring has become work the Brits won’t do.’
Most of the short staffing needs in medicine are due to schooling and instructor positions shortfalls,
not a dearth of qualified applicants.
Nursing programs are especially wanting for qualified teachers here in Washington.
November 10th, 2009 at 1:49 pm
To pass off that internet scam as a real e-mail from some Named doctor for some odd backup of an opinion you hold,
is an insult to this entire board.
You peddled that same nonsense a few weeks ago,
on this same board,
with the same results.
I feel for you if you can’t tell the difference between real issues and imaginary ones.
A medicare patient with a gold crown and new Nikes!
A welfare mother in a gold Cadillac buying Jack Daniels with your tax money!
Both are rhetorical fallacies perpetuated by the bankrupt ideologue.
Shame on you for trotting them out.
November 10th, 2009 at 1:53 pm
It never ceases to amaze me just how relevant a book written 150 years ago is to todays political climate. Everyone should read Frederic Bastiat book “The Law” written in 1850 and do some comparisons with the direction we are headed today. The book is freely available in multiple formats including:
PDF: http://www.fee.org/pdf/books/The_Law.pdf
HTML: http://bastiat.org/en/the_law.html
MP3 (Book on tape): http://freeaudio.org/fbastiat/thelaw.html
It’s so amazing tha we can think we are so enlightened and “progressive” but when you can check out history you can see that what is being proposed now as “change” has been tried multiple times over and is doomed to failure.
It also explains how/why as government gets more involved in peoples lives it naturally leads to division and polarization amoung the masses.
Anyone up for a book study?
November 10th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
Let me see if I can find a link to the Colorado study for you.
Meanwhile, check out Krugman’s post, “Paranoia Strikes Deep. ”
The point is that the takeover of the Republican Party by the irrational right is no laughing matter. Something unprecedented is happening here — and it’s very bad for America.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/09/opinion/09krugman.html?_r=1
November 10th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
Is there a standing ovation equivalent on these blogs?
If so, I would like to offer one up for elisabeth’s 12:03pm posting.
Bravo.
Laura Says:
November 9th, 2009 at 10:28 pm
“I am confused. The only rule for this site said to be civil.”
Laura Says:
November 6th, 2009 at 9:42 pm
“As worst ever says, we need to educate those LIKE worst ever who are clueless about the take over that is going on in this country.”
Laura,
Like you in your 10:28pm post, I am confused.
Your earlier unprovoked personal attack may be part of the reason others might believe you, like myself sometimes, take pleasure in being uncivil to others with opposing views.
i am attempting to tone that down as it has not served me or my cause very well.
I mention this only in an attempt to perhaps help clear up your confusion.
November 10th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
It’s actually a nationwide shortage of primary care physicians. (family doctors). Which we need in order to stay healthy. Many graduates are choosing specialty fields. But I also found articles that discuss shortages in pulmonary care and emergency room physicians.
American Medical Schools regulate Medical School applications in order to prevent a surplus of Doctors. (I guess we could be exporting Doctors, but the medical schools won’t let us).
Actually, it appears that the shortage is growing world wide. Regardless of whether a nation has universal health care or priviate health care. Here’s what I found that can supplement Citizen’s links.
Colorado Trust Study: http://www.coloradotrust.org/attachments/0000/9355/COT_HealthProf09_web2.pdf
AMA Report: http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2008/12/22/prsb1222.htm
November 10th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
Ciz, one thing for sure, yous be consistently; WRONG!!!
http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/starner.asp
AFY!!thesheepdog!!!
November 10th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
Totally what I meant, Elisabeth, my mind is just on the fritz today as I was up until 4 a.m. playing my new, awesome video game, which I’m thinking about much more today than these “politics” things everyone comes here to read about.
November 10th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
It’s a scam because it only serves to perpetuate a rhetorical fallacy,
just as I said.
As such it’s meaningless.
Was that e-mail delivered to you?
Probably,
I just got one from a Prince in Nigeria,
the FBI and the FDIC.
November 10th, 2009 at 3:24 pm
Watch out ST, those video games can be dangerous to your life!
http://www.southparkstudios.com/episodes/103797
AFY!!thesheepdog!!!
November 10th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
As snopes vindicates, Dr Sterner Jones is a real doctor with a real opinion, as I’s indicated, methinks his opinions is shared by others. Am I right or am I right?
Oh I got it, only the ciz approved opinions should ever be comtemplated!
Ciz, free speech tis be the b word for sure, don’t you know!
AFY!!thesheepdog!!
November 10th, 2009 at 3:45 pm
Two reasons to vote down the house monstrosity they call a health (insurance!) care bill;
1.) He who knows all and sees all, can not lift the bill to his knees from the floor!
2.) The word “shall” is used over 3,000 times!
On another note, a recent IBD/TIPP poll showed, 65% of doctors opposed this piece of errrr legislation and 45% said they would consider leaving their profession, if this peice of errrrr legislation was to past!
AFY!!thesheepdog!!!
November 10th, 2009 at 3:54 pm
AFY, you watch entirely too much Southpark!
November 10th, 2009 at 4:05 pm
Yeah but that one reminded me of yous me mate!
AFY!!thesheepdog!!!
November 10th, 2009 at 4:13 pm
Ah, you were in line at midnight to buy it, right? (So was my son).
He was up till 3:30 playing it!
November 10th, 2009 at 4:25 pm
AFY,
Would you please go to project vote smart website and check out the post that describes how a bill becomes law? http://www.votesmart.org/resource_govt101_02.php (We are part way through step 2 of the process).
The rest of us could really use a break from the never ending onslought of misinformation and paranoid statments that are circling our heads like flies.
November 10th, 2009 at 4:35 pm
What misinformation Madam E, name one!
Here’s some government health care for Madam E;
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,534050,00.html
AFY!!thesheepdog!!
November 10th, 2009 at 5:44 pm
Stop insulting our intelligence, Elisabeth. Learned how a bill becomes law in 5th grade civics class.
November 10th, 2009 at 6:10 pm
Want some real health care reform? Check out Operation Health Freedom.
The 1 minute intro:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRENlL4kQFk
Information:
http://www.operationhealthfreedom.com
Man I hope Peter Schiff and Rand Paul’s runs for the Senate are successful.
November 10th, 2009 at 7:39 pm
It’s not the point.
The anecdotal and unsupported musings of even a Doctor aren’t enough to make any kind of legitimate case for the social or medical problems he’s pretending to address.
If you had any logic training,
you’d understand what a rhetorical fallacy actually entails and your doctor is a textbook example.
It’s a shame that a guy with your zeal hasn’t the brainpower to use it effectively,
no offense intended.
November 10th, 2009 at 10:50 pm
Elizabeth,
Your quote…..”You are not part of the solution spinwolf, nor is Laura, or Silent Majority, or any of the other commenters who use misinformation to create anger and mistrust on these pages.”…….My sentiments about you and those on your side exactly and this is started as your rude statement not mine, plus others that have been offensive and explosive to us, also causing division.
To rectify another erroneous personal statement you made”….I have a right to be offended by your comments. You have a right to make them (first amendment) but don’t go off whining because someone called you on the rug for obnoxious behavior. Save it for your beer runs with your Libertarian friends.”…..
Elizabeth, I am not a Libertarian nor do I drink, smoke, swear, and have never done drugs, just in case you tack that onto the erroneous drinking statement you made about me. I guess that makes me pretty boring, but I certainly do not want you to attribute that to me. Spinwolf and I do not know each other but I like what Spinwolf has to say.
Below also looks like another misquote because I sure don’t recognize what you are speaking about, your printing historical documents. ?????
“…..Your buddy Laura ridiculed me for printing historical documents about health care reform on Latte”…..
????? There are no to express what is going on here.
November 10th, 2009 at 10:56 pm
Worst Ever…
My statement about “educating” was in response to your slur about the teaparty people needing to be educated,…..”the people to chastise and attempt to educate regarding the ridiculous often repeated “slogan” obviously, are the tea party protestors.” (Your statement.) Maybe you forgot what you said.
Lets also put in the part where Laura says ALL, in your other slam…(”I think we ALL need a refresher”) I said ALL because that includes me, and you conveniently left it out. Also if you go look up at the top under Sam’s picture, he is the one who brings in the “Golden Rule” which most of us have abused, myself and Sam included, which is why I said ALL. I have found the other side guilty of what they like to accuse those who oppose them. Thus we are finding it difficult to abide by the golden rule.
Lucky 7 has said it quite well:
“….Elisabeth, spinnwolf, Laura, Jurgen, Todd2, and others,
It seems clear that convincing each other that the health care reform bill is either good or bad is unlikely. That being said, many of us may be more open minded if you would simply explain, sans “spin”, the key advantages and disadvantages of the plan. Remember, most of us won’t read a long rant. Plain and simple is most effective”…..
I agree Lucky 7 which is why I usually do not get involved with blogs like this. I will invest my time in something more fruitful and productive like reading a book, “The 5000 Year Leap”, principles of freedom 101, a miracle that changed the world. It’s a good one! Enjoy!
November 10th, 2009 at 11:31 pm
Laura,
I cannot disagree with your decision to invest your time in something more fruitful. As you might have noticed, I didn’t post a comment in this thread until late in the game, and I only did so to try to get the participants on track.
I generally limit my comments to my primary concerns, the Fairhaven Highlands development on Chuckanut Ridge and a few other local growth-related issues. To be honest, at best, these blogs may have some minimal impact on local issues as decision-makers read them from time-to-time. On statewide and national issues, commenters on the Herald’s blogs have no prayer of having any impact. That’s why I generally don’t bother.
Good luck with your newly-found free time. Hope you enjoy your book!
November 10th, 2009 at 11:36 pm
When you’re done reading that book you can use it for toilet paper, that’s about all it’s worth.
November 11th, 2009 at 12:42 am
Citizen - I feel like you’re a bit patronizing with the “no offense intended” each time you post. Of course you mean offense. However, I don’t consider your remarks to be over the line too much as it’s part of the typical banter here. And AFY more than pretty much anyone is insanely good about letting things roll off. He’s the master of getting all of you riled up and so I let people go at him a bit more because with his “flies and honey” schtick it gets to you more than him being insulting. An interesting case study.
Anyway … please, don’t think that I’m allowing your posts to remain because you throw three words out at the end to try to gussy it up.
November 11th, 2009 at 12:49 am
I’ve noticed that Elisabeth has been a bit more, hmmm, shall we say … pithy? … in her comments recently. Elisabeth, I hope all is well. You seem a bit worked up as of late.
November 11th, 2009 at 1:00 am
Lucky did bring up a good point when he asked his question. It seems like people here … no scratch that … people here are extremely partisan. Y’all are quite divisive and don’t ever seem to agree on anything.
Lucky’s attempt to get people to define their positions on the specific legislation in front of the House was admirable. But that would require people to actually read the legislation. I’d wager perhaps just one person here has read the whole thing, that being Elisabeth, but perhaps not. She is, frankly, a geek.
That being said … I second Lucky’s question. What are the pros and cons for you.
If we could actually get a list going on perhaps we could actually find some commonalities, etc. No, perhaps this blog has no national impact … but the point is community conversation and not necessarily to affect change. I believe another local blog believes that’s the goal of all blogs.
Not here. This blog’s goal is to inform, to insight though and discussion and to bring people together from all walks of life to converse about whatever is posted. We’ve got a good mix, but the national debate this last year has been more heated than any we’ve had on the blog so far.
Pehraps I should start getting more strict with the comments? It’s a fine line I try to keep balanced with what I allow people to post, because part of the heated conversation keeps this place entertaining and clearly keeps people coming back. Nearly 14,000 page views last week, after all (and, Lucky, most local officials actually read this blog at least daily, if not more than once).
November 11th, 2009 at 8:55 am
So if AFY!!! is insulted by our banter back and forth, I’d let him speak for himself.
Nice of you to monitor every phrase I post for projected or imagined insult but really,
aren’t there more productive ways to spend your time?
You look for anything I post that might ruffle your feathers, and you’ll find it.
November 11th, 2009 at 9:00 am
Try to think of ‘no offense intended’ as the smile at the end of a retort over a cold beer.
Does that help ya gussy yerself?
November 11th, 2009 at 9:13 am
Sam,
It’s nice to know that “most local officials actually read this blog at least daily, if not more than once.” As I recognized in my earlier post, “these blogs may have some minimal impact on local issues.” That being said, there’s a big difference between something being read and something having impact. I suspect many local officials are reading the blog simply to make sure their reputation isn’t being tarnished in some way. I notice that officials rarely comment here unless they, or their actions, are being attacked.
I agree that your blog provides a valuable service… a central meeting place for the community to converse on important issues. IMO, your most effective blogs are those that focus on local issues. I look forward to more of those.
I suspect that many people are like me. If they are going to take the time to “converse” they would like their time to be well spent. For me, that means having an impact rather than just a dialogue. I suspect that AFY (whom I respect) and others disagree with me and simply enjoy yanking each other’s chains and sharing their own personal wisdom.
Perhaps one of our esteemed local decision makers could let us know how much impact this blog actually has on their decision making process.
Regarding the 14,000 page views last week, I suspect 5,000 of those are simply AFY refreshing his pages (although I really don’t know how the 14,000 figure is derived).
On a personal note, I sincerely appreciate your enthusiasm and curiosity. I am not in any way trying to discount the value of your efforts. In fact, on local issues, I believe the value is very high. It could be even higher if everyone would check their emotion, partisanship and anger at the door. Let’s share information rather than insults.
Thanks, Sam, for all you do!
November 11th, 2009 at 10:00 am
L7 you underestimate me, only 5,000!
On being insulted, well; My mother ain’t no astronaut!
AFY!!thesheepdog!!!
November 11th, 2009 at 10:09 am
No Citizen, I think you purposely do it to try to skirt the one rule, and it’s ridiculous. And no, there aren’t more productive ways to spend my time. I’m literally paid money to spend time here.
November 11th, 2009 at 10:31 am
AFY, thanks for sharing David Goldhill’s article, “How American Health Care Killed My Father.” Mr. Goldhill does an excellent job of defining the problem, a necessary step if we have any hope for a lasting solution. I agree with his solutions, in principle; however, I disagree with many of his detailed suggestions. In any event, it’s an interesting primer on the problems we face in ensuring affordable and accessible care.
The article is probably too long for most to read, but I’ll provide a link just in case.
Thanks again AFY. Try to keep your page total under 5k if you can!
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200909/health-care
November 11th, 2009 at 10:45 am
Oh my goodness what a lot of ‘conversation’. My family is supported by a small business and I’m beyond glad that we have health care moving forward. I really want a public option.
I just can’t help it, I’m an American, and I think competition in the marketplace is a good thing. We only get that with a robust and viable public option.
November 11th, 2009 at 10:57 am
I think you can trust AFY!!! to give as good as he gets and to take offense only when it’s deserved.
And if not,
he can complain to you.
Maybe if I started using those insipid emoticons,
you’d lay off and find some other mark?
I’ve had several disagreements with you over my writing style,
and each time you were generous enough to give yourself the benefit of the doubt.
Now, allow me the same courtesy.
If any other posters see my writing as purposely circumventing your rule against overt insult,
then I’d gladly listen.
But I could post the Sermon on the Mount and you’d find some reason to complain.
November 11th, 2009 at 11:03 am
Worked up? I suppose so.
Like you, I’ve noticed that it is increasingly difficult to have a productve discussion with anyone about policy issues.
You’re right - I’m a policy geek who not only majored in Political Science, but also worked in the legislature for almost a decade. I used to get paid to review legislation and assist people in gaining a deeper understanding of it. In fact, I enjoy it!
The partisan behavior we see on these pages doesn’t take place in the legislature. Both Republicans and Democrats work together to draft legislation that reflects the values of the people who live in our state and community.
So, forgive me if I get testy with indivduals (who’s only goal is to create distrust and anger towards public officials and their staff). I know how hard legislators and committee staff work. It’s not unusal to put in 10 hour days during session. There is no overtime pay. No weekend pay. We did it, because we wanted and needed to be fully informed.
I worked for four legislators. Every one of them read legislation, bill reports and fiscal analysis. Every one of them would take the time to talk to constituents (pro and con) before they voted.
Re: CAPR. I don’t like the organization. I’ve visited their website, read their posts, checked out their statements on the issues (which are distorted) and can live without them. It’s difficult to respect a group that intentionally sets out to frighten property owners. A credible organization would take the time to teach members how to work with local officials in a productive manner.
Yellow shirts, yelling, and all of the rudeness I have withnessed at meetings only hurts this community.
That said, I’ve worked with plenty of property rights folks over the years who had genuine concerns. When that happens, legislators draft amendments to the GMA to provide relief, if necessary.
November 11th, 2009 at 11:03 am
Sam,
Former Seattle Times reporter Ross Anderson wrote an interesting article about Michelle Malkin on Crosscut.com. He describes Malkin’s style in an interesting way, and I believe his description applies, on occasion, to the content of blogs all over the internet. Anderson writes:
“This is not the intellectual debate we once engaged in. It’s tribalism, my people versus your people. I’m right and anybody who disagrees is ignorant or corrupt or both.”
To the extent your blog evolves into an “intellectual debate” rather than “tribalism,” I believe your 14,000 per week page views will grow exponentially (even discounting AFY’s refreshes).
I hope you can achieve that. It would be both welcome and rare.
Here’s a link to Anderson’s article:
http://crosscut.com/2009/11/06/books-ideas/19351/
November 11th, 2009 at 11:08 am
Ciz can you walk on water too?
I betchya ciz, he who sees all and knows all has censored me remarks more than you my friend!
It’s his playground, the rules are as fair as any playground I’s has visited but if it be known when I’s played soccer and the ref weren’t looking and I’s gave someone an elbow and got caught, I’s always took me yellow card and played on! But a little bit more careful, that is!
AFY!!thesheepdog!!!
November 11th, 2009 at 11:18 am
Thanks for offering up the thoughts, Elisabeth. I understand where you’re coming from. However, when I read comments from people like Laura, SM, DJ, Bellinghammer, etc., I don’t think they’re purposely trying to spin issues as if the government is evil. I think they’re sharing their perspective, and it’s simply different than yours. Not that everything everyone writes on this blog (whether it’s left, middle or right, now just those above) is accurate, and sometimes it takes some discussion to try to educate a person about the facts of an issue.
Of course you’re never going to get everyone to agree.
I confess I am frustrated as well with the lack of meaningful dialogue. The anger appears to be trickle-down from the national political scene, and much of that anger is now channeled at local officials, though often those shouting at them don’t seem to have really paid much attention to local issues. It can make it difficult for me, too, because as I write to inform the public, there is a new segment that appears to rather get their news in the form of rumor and gossip and what I write automatically must be lies. There is always that reaction, but it’s become much more common place than it was before the 2008 election.
November 11th, 2009 at 11:19 am
You’d be right, AFY. You’ve lost quite a few more posts on this blog than Citizen.
November 11th, 2009 at 11:19 am
To start the day off right, this is for you Madam E!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygQJZwpszjY
AFY!!thesheepdog!!!
November 11th, 2009 at 11:44 am
Elisabeth makes a good point regarding CAPR and property rights people. Less so than E but I’ve also found common ground and worked with property rights people. I’m interested in the specifics of how regulations can be made fair and made to protect the common good (no poop in our water) without overly treading on toes.
That’s why I think the recent yellow shirt scene was ALL about the local elections (who exactly paid for all those yellow signs?) and not at all about a real intrusion into someone’s property rights.
CAPR was brought in to swing the election in my opinion, and we’ll see it go away now.
November 11th, 2009 at 11:48 am
I’d rather be censored than scolded.
November 11th, 2009 at 11:52 am
Elisabeth,
I, for one, appreciate all of your efforts. I also appreciate how easy it is to get worked up; I have been told by many, including Sam, that I “attack” everyone I come into contact with.
You have every reason to feel “worked up.” Besides reading, writing your blog, and commenting here, I’m surprised you’ve kept it together as well as you have.
If we all would listen a little more, we might actually all arrive where we’re trying to go. The shouting at each other is nothing but noise, and we have all simply covered our ears. Unfortunately, when decision makers stop listening, as some (many, in my experience) have, there are few options besides raising your voice. I appreciate Sam’s perspective, but he’s not in the trenches like you and I are. A casual observer can always keep his cool; not so for an avid participant.
Elisabeth, I may not always agree with your positions; but I always listen to your arguments. I hope you’ll continue to express them as well as you do and continue to be an avid participant. I’m pretty sure you will.
November 11th, 2009 at 12:02 pm
I’s likes Madam E toos!
Ciz, a good spankin can be fun some times!
AFY!!thesheepdog!!!
November 11th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
Lucky - when have I ever said you attack everyone you come in contact with!?
November 11th, 2009 at 12:14 pm
Sam, I’m sending the link as an email to you. This is what you said (substituting “Lucky 7″ for my name):
“I appreciate Lucky 7’s work on this but he doesn’t help himself by constantly attacking absolutely everyone ever involved in any of this.”
Does that ring a bell?
November 11th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
Sam,
You’ve done a great job of covering the elections and local policy issues. I’ve read some of the posts accusing you of bias, but I do not agree with the authors of those posts.
I appreciate you sharing your perspective on Silent Majority, DJ, Laura, etc. And, perhaps I have over estimated Laura’s understanding of government. Nevertheless, we all have a duty to educate ourselves. Unfocused anger and paranoia will not change the course of this nation. It just creates more irrational fear and anger.
Silent Majority, Pioneer, Fred Farkle and a handful of others (I don’t know about Bellinghammer or DJ) have been conducting a massive disinformation campaign on health care and local elections for many weeks now. How do I know? They post the same comment over and over again on every article they can find. That’s the sign of a true disinformation artist!
If they are “acting out” because they don’t understand government, I’ll eat my hat! I’m a geek, not a political operative, but I recognize a disinformation campaign when I see one!
Suzie Q,
I hope you are right. Concerned property owners would be better served by an organization that provides training on how to effectively work with local, state and federal legislators and staff.
November 11th, 2009 at 12:30 pm
I don’t mind a paddling by a handy and buxom Madame,
but a reporter with a video game fetish ain’t my idea of a good time.
Why not do as an editor and redline anything questionable?
Gets a point across without the dunce cap and highchair.
November 11th, 2009 at 12:34 pm
Lucky - thanks for the e-mail. You clearly have a very good memory. However, that comment was completely related specifically to the issue at hand, because you were going after not only the public officials regarding the issue, but me as well … just the messenger. I don’t think you do it every time you talk to someone, if that’s what you’re thinking or associating with the comment I made. Just to clarify. And boy howdy you definitely have a good memory.
November 11th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
I notice that posts are more aggressive and agitated and nasty on stormy rainy days.
The memory one has of being wronged never dies
and nobody ever forgets where they buried the hatchet.
November 11th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
ST, on L7, I’s can attest to that also!
AFY!!thesheepdog!!!
November 11th, 2009 at 1:12 pm
Sam, I stand corrected. I should have written, “I have been told by many including Sam, that I ‘attack’ everyone I come into contact with… regarding one particular issue.”
Truth is, I believe we all have a hot-button issue. I’m pretty sure you do, as I’ve received some pretty blunt emails from you.
I would say this, try walking in my shoes (or Elisabeth’s, Laura’s, Camille’s, Suzie Q’s, citizen’s, spinnwolf’s, Todd2’s, WORST EVER’s, SilentMajority’s, Jurgen’s, or Bellinghammer’s). [You can try walking in AFY's shoes, but they're hard to fill; and Apexnerd's are... you know, a little ripe!]
It’s not easy to get the attention of those who decide on important issues that directly impact our lives. You can try until you’re blue in the face. When you see nothing but a blank stare, you might try talking louder, or sending more emails, or making more phone calls. We don’t get paid to do this, as you do. And we are very invested in the outcome, while you probably are not.
Trying to influence public opinion and public officials is a blood sport, and in rare cases, can feel like a matter of life or death. Please don’t minimize what these active people do. Respect them, like I do, regardless of whether I share their beliefs.
November 11th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
They’re not hot buttons for me, Lucky, but if I’m blunt - it’s because I want to ensure my point is being made. I apologize if I’m terse with you, but you can be pretty persistent.
November 11th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
Sam, your emails I’m referring to are not about you making a point, and they are definitely related to one of your “buttons.”
I see that “persistent” means “continuing to exist despite interference or treatment.”
I believe that’s an accurate description. I have received some pretty poor treatment and nasty interference, yet I’m still here. The light needs to be shined on our decision makers and elected officials whenever and wherever they fail to honor their fiduciary obligations and our trust in them.
You do that, occasionally, and I appreciate that. But there’s a lot more light that needs to be shined on our local leaders. Are you up to that?
November 11th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
LUcky - I believe me making a point was trying to get you to understand that I don’t cover Chuckanut Ridge, though you consistently tried to go around Jared Paben to get me to do so, which I won’t do. Not really in the mood to fight today, so this is my last post on the topic.
November 11th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
Adios, amigo!
November 11th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
Laura,
My memory is good.
Personal attack(yours) vs comments about a group of people(mine).
Enjoy your book.